If you meet someone and they say to you, "I'm a an exegete and apart from me, you can have no knowledge of the gospel, of who Christ is, of what salvation is like, and of what the effect is to be when the gospel is applied to the life of the believer", then don't waste your time talking with him. Because I've already done it and it is useless. Exegetics itself is an extremely useful tool. It's the man behind the exegetics that has the potential to make it dangerous. The remark in question was as follows:
"Apart from exegetics, we have no knowledge of the gospel, of who Christ is, of what salvation is like, and of what the effect is to be when the gospel is applied to the life of the believer."
We are apart from God. Exegetics is also apart from God. God brings us into reconciliation with Himself through providing His Son to us for the purpose of bringing us into a relationship with Him that allows us to be in His presence. Let's not forget that exegetics is a man-made science which we use to look back at the words of the church fathers and ascertain, as close as we can, what they said. Or much more importantly what those God inspired authors were told. Even in that way, exegetics is especially limited in rendering an understanding that is complete by itself, in light of these statments of Paul's in 1 Cor. 2:
10[b](T)For to us God revealed them (U)through the Spirit;
. 12Now we (X)have received, not the spirit of (Y)the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
13which things we also speak, (Z)not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
1 Cor. 6-7:
6Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are (A)mature; a wisdom, however, not of (B)this age nor of the rulers of (C)this age, who are (D)passing away;
7but we speak God's wisdom.
4and my message and my preaching were (F)not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of (G)the Spirit and of power,
5so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on (H)the power of God.
I think God just spoke for Himself.
Nothing stated here is suggesting we should discard exegetics. Nor that anybody even wants to. However, exegetics can be right and it can be wrong, depending on it's practice in the fallen hands of any given man.
One of the problems during our practicing of exegetics is, we don't always do our business by doing what God said above, "...combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words".
The apostles could not always refer to, when given the available words in our fallen world, find one to convey God's Spirit-worldly intended meaning. Much of the time the apostles are actually introducing semantic definition and ideas within their message that hitherto did not exist, laying the groundwork for a new dictionary of words which only the bible has the definitions for, and therefore would be beyond the reach of any Greek lexicon or Hebrew dictionary.
In many cases the apostles were semantically incorrect, in our terms, but in all cases, do render their final intended meaning clearly with their surrounding statements.
The main problem in exegetics is that certain issues and meanings will never be agreed upon, within the practice of exegetics. The finest exegetes in the world now and forever will disagree. For that reason, I believe, exegetics, as a science, must fall into a subcategory, in the pursuit of meaning, within a larger body of discernment. It's all about discernment. And prudence. I'm surely not going to do a very good job clarifying those two virtues here, but possibly in some future posts I can have some fun and build on what I can extract from the bible about them. I'm simply trying to remove some roadblocks placed in front of the average believer by poorly done exegetics which may cause that believer to stumble in his efforts to cut through the confusion when seeking biblical Truths. I certainly do not claim to have the whole scheme figured out yet, and frankly I'm sure I never will have it completely, but in general, what I've said here appears to me to be accurate, and a fine starting point to continue from, while proceeding down the bramble infested highway of Christian growth.
The mind of the person in the opening illustration of this post is unduly empowering himself when he speaks,"Apart from exegetics,we have no knowledge of the gospel, of who Christ is, of what salvation is like, and of what the effect is to be when the gospel is applied to the life of the believer". And by assuming power in that fashion it is taking over control of the self contained and self empowered truths of the bible. What we have in this speaker is a very powerful human mind that has not grasped the well seasoned discernment it needs to aquire before it can properly apply exegetics towards biblical Truths.
Exegetics is a critical aid if we are to understand God's word, but poorly done, it can be useless. Dead. Poorly done exegetics can leave people with dangerous man-made conclusions involving the message of God's Word that may hinder the work of the Spirit in them and hinder their understanding of what Christ was sent here to do for them. So be careful.
I'm out of time so here are some proverbs that are truly enjoyable for me to contemplate with regards to the studying of the whole bible, therby allowing the Lord to speak its single meaning to us on His own terms.
Hope this stimulated as much thought in you as in me. Thanks for looking in. Any feedback would be relished, especially more in the way of critical counsel or correction, than in the way of agreement. Some edification please. No desire to debate, just to be corrected, insightfully, and share, and grow and be reconciled, towards the goal "of us all being in the one mind of Christ" which He asks us to strive after.
Those proverbs I mentioned:
God refers to the urtterances of His mouth saying "They are all straightforward to him who understands,..."
"and all desirable things cannot compare with her (wisdom)".
"On the lips of the discerning, wisdom is found"
"Where there are many words, transgression is unavoidable,..." It just makes you pause and
think doesn't it.
"I, wisdom dwell with prudence, and I find knowledge and discretion."
"From everlasting I was established...when He established the heavens I (wisdom) was there".
"a false balance is an abomination to the Lord". Watch your perspective.
"The Lord will not allow the righteous to hunger". If He is referring to food, then He would feel even moreso about spiritual food. Jesus said "I am the True bread from heaven...", "Those who eat of Me will never hunger."
"But we have the mind of Christ". That is quite a gift.
Monday, January 30, 2006
Monday, January 23, 2006
I Like That..
I couldn't help but visit the Pontificators blog just out of curiosity and found time to inadvisably inject my own underdeveloped remarks about the theological discussion at hand. And while I didn't use the phrase "like flies trying to find their way out of a fly bottle", I sort of like that. I was intrigued by the fact that this person below, presumably, a Catholic, agreed with me, hopefully suggesting a possible much-encompassing accuracy to our remarks. Or we could be way off. At any rate I thought it was cute and had to snatch it up for the record even though I'm not sure what the bulk of his remark is talking about. But you know how those genius' are sometimes:
34. Spirit of Vatican II Says: January 23rd, 2006 at 3:16 am
We wander in what Todd Saunders, above, calls the circular theological trap, like flies trying to find their way out of the fly-bottle.
What is missing is consultation of what the Council called THE SIGNS OF THE TIMES.
The Gospel articulates itself truly only within open dialogue with the questions of contemporary humankind. A self-contained Christian discourse is by that very token false, an idol.
34. Spirit of Vatican II Says: January 23rd, 2006 at 3:16 am
We wander in what Todd Saunders, above, calls the circular theological trap, like flies trying to find their way out of the fly-bottle.
What is missing is consultation of what the Council called THE SIGNS OF THE TIMES.
The Gospel articulates itself truly only within open dialogue with the questions of contemporary humankind. A self-contained Christian discourse is by that very token false, an idol.
Wednesday, January 18, 2006
Talking About Scripture Together Without Talking In Circles
My goal in this blog is to provide inquirers with a quick read on who I am and why. To post my perspectives while not really asking or posing any questions, although without discouraging comments either. Hopefully, filling in some missing information for those who need to know more about a comment I've made somewhere else in the blogisphere or elsewhere. And probably partly, to provide a record, in print, for myself, of thoughts and opinions I have. Primarily to frame who I am for anyone who is curious.
The blogisphere is by far the best means yet for dissecting ideas with others on-line. No more or no less useful than the care and attention given it by those who use it. Therefore, a lot of wasteful arguing often ensues. I remember at one point in my twenties watching Phil Donahue quite a bit and seeing, show after show, the crowd never working toward a resolution of the question at hand. How tiresome that got. How without any use that is. Since there was no agreement even being strived for most of the time, I couldn't justify wasting my time getting all worked up over the issues when noone was really looking for a solution, but only for things to be seen their way.
The same thing happens in the blogisphere. Luckily, in the Christian blogisphere we can refer to the Truth. The bible. Our God tells us He is not the God of confusion. So if what a person finds themselves saying in these blogs is confusing, or not clearly backed up by scripture, or is backed up by scripture but simply not being represented clearly by that person, then how worthwhile is your time being spent? Perhaps you should be studying more and talking less, therby letting the whole of your studies in God's word season inside of you a bit. As long as you see how He is the Truth, the Way, and the Life, then you have the most important victory available to you. That's why I try to be quiet. That's when I learn the most. That took me a long time to learn and primarily through time after time making a fool of myself by speaking too soon. I can still do that. I'm sure it will be a lifelong battle to learn how to wait until I've weighed my words carefully before I turn them loose.Very few things are as important as that.
I have a funny way of blogging. I tend to come back to a post for days after I have posted it and fine tune it and fine tune it. It is a record of my thoughts about something that I am trying to say as completely and effectively as possible, oftentimes for my own future reference. So with that in mind, the following is a comment I posted on the comment page of someone elses blog. It doesn't really matter where or even what the question was. It took me an hour to write and I want to preserve alot of the thoughts contained in it about debating things in the bible that are less than clear, and my opinion on part of the approach we as Christians need to keep in mind, as we dialogue on what the bible says to us individually.
I find it unsettling and disheartening that when I meet other Christians and want to share in conversation about things in Gods word that each of us finds exciting, that we can't, because we don't believe in the same thing. That we're talking from different theologies, or differing bible translations or some other difference. People get defensive. That's wrong. Christian biblical truth has been muddled by many great thinkers who stopped short of trying to strive to be of one mind, that is ultimately Christ's, as He has instructed us to do. He tells us we have the mind of Christ. I suppose that is a combination of having God's word and the Holy Spirit to help us understand the wisdom and knowledge that is contained in it. He is not a God of confusion and fragmentation. There are a lot more sensible things to be said on the subject than I am going to say right here, that's for sure, but this, and what follows, is a start.
Comment Reference:
I think if we all went by "what we can know for sure" from the bible, then we would be attaining more closely to "the unity of the one mind of Christ". It's terribly easy to speculate further about the real meanings of God's word that are not real clear, and in my opinion, harmless if done in the right way, but is also sternly warned against. And some very sensible arguements are made against speculating (I use the word "speculations" from the NASB) as well, by the apostles that should be easily understood. We want to know it "all" though, as the presently fleshly children of God, and it can be very divisive. The average person covets that power of all-knowledge. With very bright men all through history, it has been shown that their modest power can go wildly wrong. But at least we've stopped slaughtering each other over it for the time being.
My point is that there is much more that we wish we could know than we have been permitted to know given the information revealed to us by God, by His design I believe, and we have to contain ourselves wisely in the zealous pursuit to know more of it. Yet, instead, we tend to fret about it and warn each other Christians about our own imaginings and speculations. That is a wasteful fleshly undertaking which has gained almost truthlike acceptance, to me testifying also to the abundance of mutually unaccepting denominations.
There is nothing more enlightening and productive than active dialogue and even lively debate towards growth and understanding of God's word. But then draw back and conclude in what we can know for sure and letting each man struggle with the unknowable in his own way. This battle of theologies we are in in the Christian world, to me is a classic example of being "in Apollos" or "in Cephas" or "in Paul" or "in Calvin". We are told, and have seen, it causes problems. It caused big problems for the Anabaptists in Calvin's day as well as many others. That's a dramatic example, but how is a person sopposed to process all of that history. Calvin got some big ones wrong! Some of his conclusions are revolting to other Christians when put alongside other things we are told by God, for sure, about salvation, assurance, the sinful nature, etc. And his speculations have caused alot of unrest in the body of Christ. They have helped many but might their absence have helped many more? Now, I have but little other choice than to speculate myself.
It seems to me that today there are "Calvinist's" who see the incompleteness of Calvin's ideas and are trying to pick up where he left off and attempt to complete his ideas. That is a worthwhile undertaking. It is just hard to watch the continued fall out amongst Christians from his radical views.
So let us know what we can know, but demand that it pass the test of scripture. If it's not made clear then we are fools to suppose to finish God's work for Him. If it's not made clear by Him then don't give it undue importance that does not come from Him.
There is only one Truth, one right answer. I think sometimes we "think that away" in an effort to over explain things that don't need over explaining.
Divergent viewpoints can be healthy and they can be destructive, even fatal. (I need to find some scripture to back that up, I think it's there somewhere).
Just some points to ponder.
...Yearning for that peace in the Body of believers that is probably not reasonable to think will come on this earth until that great day.
Until that great day, Todd
See you next time!
The blogisphere is by far the best means yet for dissecting ideas with others on-line. No more or no less useful than the care and attention given it by those who use it. Therefore, a lot of wasteful arguing often ensues. I remember at one point in my twenties watching Phil Donahue quite a bit and seeing, show after show, the crowd never working toward a resolution of the question at hand. How tiresome that got. How without any use that is. Since there was no agreement even being strived for most of the time, I couldn't justify wasting my time getting all worked up over the issues when noone was really looking for a solution, but only for things to be seen their way.
The same thing happens in the blogisphere. Luckily, in the Christian blogisphere we can refer to the Truth. The bible. Our God tells us He is not the God of confusion. So if what a person finds themselves saying in these blogs is confusing, or not clearly backed up by scripture, or is backed up by scripture but simply not being represented clearly by that person, then how worthwhile is your time being spent? Perhaps you should be studying more and talking less, therby letting the whole of your studies in God's word season inside of you a bit. As long as you see how He is the Truth, the Way, and the Life, then you have the most important victory available to you. That's why I try to be quiet. That's when I learn the most. That took me a long time to learn and primarily through time after time making a fool of myself by speaking too soon. I can still do that. I'm sure it will be a lifelong battle to learn how to wait until I've weighed my words carefully before I turn them loose.Very few things are as important as that.
I have a funny way of blogging. I tend to come back to a post for days after I have posted it and fine tune it and fine tune it. It is a record of my thoughts about something that I am trying to say as completely and effectively as possible, oftentimes for my own future reference. So with that in mind, the following is a comment I posted on the comment page of someone elses blog. It doesn't really matter where or even what the question was. It took me an hour to write and I want to preserve alot of the thoughts contained in it about debating things in the bible that are less than clear, and my opinion on part of the approach we as Christians need to keep in mind, as we dialogue on what the bible says to us individually.
I find it unsettling and disheartening that when I meet other Christians and want to share in conversation about things in Gods word that each of us finds exciting, that we can't, because we don't believe in the same thing. That we're talking from different theologies, or differing bible translations or some other difference. People get defensive. That's wrong. Christian biblical truth has been muddled by many great thinkers who stopped short of trying to strive to be of one mind, that is ultimately Christ's, as He has instructed us to do. He tells us we have the mind of Christ. I suppose that is a combination of having God's word and the Holy Spirit to help us understand the wisdom and knowledge that is contained in it. He is not a God of confusion and fragmentation. There are a lot more sensible things to be said on the subject than I am going to say right here, that's for sure, but this, and what follows, is a start.
Comment Reference:
I think if we all went by "what we can know for sure" from the bible, then we would be attaining more closely to "the unity of the one mind of Christ". It's terribly easy to speculate further about the real meanings of God's word that are not real clear, and in my opinion, harmless if done in the right way, but is also sternly warned against. And some very sensible arguements are made against speculating (I use the word "speculations" from the NASB) as well, by the apostles that should be easily understood. We want to know it "all" though, as the presently fleshly children of God, and it can be very divisive. The average person covets that power of all-knowledge. With very bright men all through history, it has been shown that their modest power can go wildly wrong. But at least we've stopped slaughtering each other over it for the time being.
My point is that there is much more that we wish we could know than we have been permitted to know given the information revealed to us by God, by His design I believe, and we have to contain ourselves wisely in the zealous pursuit to know more of it. Yet, instead, we tend to fret about it and warn each other Christians about our own imaginings and speculations. That is a wasteful fleshly undertaking which has gained almost truthlike acceptance, to me testifying also to the abundance of mutually unaccepting denominations.
There is nothing more enlightening and productive than active dialogue and even lively debate towards growth and understanding of God's word. But then draw back and conclude in what we can know for sure and letting each man struggle with the unknowable in his own way. This battle of theologies we are in in the Christian world, to me is a classic example of being "in Apollos" or "in Cephas" or "in Paul" or "in Calvin". We are told, and have seen, it causes problems. It caused big problems for the Anabaptists in Calvin's day as well as many others. That's a dramatic example, but how is a person sopposed to process all of that history. Calvin got some big ones wrong! Some of his conclusions are revolting to other Christians when put alongside other things we are told by God, for sure, about salvation, assurance, the sinful nature, etc. And his speculations have caused alot of unrest in the body of Christ. They have helped many but might their absence have helped many more? Now, I have but little other choice than to speculate myself.
It seems to me that today there are "Calvinist's" who see the incompleteness of Calvin's ideas and are trying to pick up where he left off and attempt to complete his ideas. That is a worthwhile undertaking. It is just hard to watch the continued fall out amongst Christians from his radical views.
So let us know what we can know, but demand that it pass the test of scripture. If it's not made clear then we are fools to suppose to finish God's work for Him. If it's not made clear by Him then don't give it undue importance that does not come from Him.
There is only one Truth, one right answer. I think sometimes we "think that away" in an effort to over explain things that don't need over explaining.
Divergent viewpoints can be healthy and they can be destructive, even fatal. (I need to find some scripture to back that up, I think it's there somewhere).
Just some points to ponder.
...Yearning for that peace in the Body of believers that is probably not reasonable to think will come on this earth until that great day.
Until that great day, Todd
See you next time!
Wednesday, January 11, 2006
Wednesday, January 04, 2006
Just Museing About Something for a Minute...
I have absolutely nothing intelligent to say about Covenant Theology, and it is as follows.
It strikes me, in the small amount of time that I've been able to devote towards understanding Cvt. Th., that it is weighted down by the appearance to me that it is some of God's students trying to solve a riddle. It simply renders God's word as too much of a riddle for which we cannot be sure of the answer. It seems as though the answers to the problem of the lack of certainty of meaning in the lesser clear areas of God's word, which are maybe more numerous than not, are attempted to be answered by many great men coming up with great ideas about great possibilities of meaning . Many of the great thinkers differing from one another. Almost like, in their striving, they are trying too hard. Proving their own minds but not doing enough for the general Christian consciousness that is looking at the same word of God; giving something for people to work from but too often something incomplete to cling to as well. I can't help but have come to my mind the early Calvinist's burning of all of the Anabaptist's who were of no use to them in waging holy war.
My stating this in this way is certainly not fair to Cvt. Th. folks. It's one-sided. But this is my opinion and I consider Cvt. Th's. to be my cherished brothers in faith. This is not even intended to be a criticism, we all know we have our doctrinal differences, and even what they are, I'm just musing and getting a few thoughts down, and therby hoping for you to know me a little fuller. Your brother... thanks to God.
I've weighed Calvinism and Arminianism and Lutherinism and all of the ism's and see intellectually gifted men who were able to help right the course of misguided collective mainstream Christianity during their time, and all of them, simply get some parts of the Word just flat wrong. So it seems clear that you would not to fully align yourself with any of them but be well advised by all of them, continueing on down the path they've helped to correct.
I see theology as a science. Science has limitations. We have to read too much into science for it to have anything more than practical limited use. Science is a blessing in the way that it has much practical, earthly utility. There is so much more that we can't know. It's fun to guess but while we are guessing, know that we are guessing. Thankfully, all of the important things, we can truly know.
Don't get so bold with your theology as to try and clarify things that are not. They will prevail and remain unclear. I'm speaking now to all people who have spent years of excitement hungering over God's word and desiring to please Him, and trying to study and obey His gospel. How much are we supposed to know? Volumes and then it stops, leaving the most tantilizing questions unanswered. That's our answer. We are expected to know much; that is, to know God through His word and through His Son, and then, to just be assured. To be assured, in spite of the rest of our unknowing. Might that we all would remember to rest together in that faith. As much as possible, along the way home, together.
Looking forward with hope and faith, Todd
It strikes me, in the small amount of time that I've been able to devote towards understanding Cvt. Th., that it is weighted down by the appearance to me that it is some of God's students trying to solve a riddle. It simply renders God's word as too much of a riddle for which we cannot be sure of the answer. It seems as though the answers to the problem of the lack of certainty of meaning in the lesser clear areas of God's word, which are maybe more numerous than not, are attempted to be answered by many great men coming up with great ideas about great possibilities of meaning . Many of the great thinkers differing from one another. Almost like, in their striving, they are trying too hard. Proving their own minds but not doing enough for the general Christian consciousness that is looking at the same word of God; giving something for people to work from but too often something incomplete to cling to as well. I can't help but have come to my mind the early Calvinist's burning of all of the Anabaptist's who were of no use to them in waging holy war.
My stating this in this way is certainly not fair to Cvt. Th. folks. It's one-sided. But this is my opinion and I consider Cvt. Th's. to be my cherished brothers in faith. This is not even intended to be a criticism, we all know we have our doctrinal differences, and even what they are, I'm just musing and getting a few thoughts down, and therby hoping for you to know me a little fuller. Your brother... thanks to God.
I've weighed Calvinism and Arminianism and Lutherinism and all of the ism's and see intellectually gifted men who were able to help right the course of misguided collective mainstream Christianity during their time, and all of them, simply get some parts of the Word just flat wrong. So it seems clear that you would not to fully align yourself with any of them but be well advised by all of them, continueing on down the path they've helped to correct.
I see theology as a science. Science has limitations. We have to read too much into science for it to have anything more than practical limited use. Science is a blessing in the way that it has much practical, earthly utility. There is so much more that we can't know. It's fun to guess but while we are guessing, know that we are guessing. Thankfully, all of the important things, we can truly know.
Don't get so bold with your theology as to try and clarify things that are not. They will prevail and remain unclear. I'm speaking now to all people who have spent years of excitement hungering over God's word and desiring to please Him, and trying to study and obey His gospel. How much are we supposed to know? Volumes and then it stops, leaving the most tantilizing questions unanswered. That's our answer. We are expected to know much; that is, to know God through His word and through His Son, and then, to just be assured. To be assured, in spite of the rest of our unknowing. Might that we all would remember to rest together in that faith. As much as possible, along the way home, together.
Looking forward with hope and faith, Todd
Thursday, December 22, 2005
A Lesson For Me In Sufficiency
Well, here you are again checking my blog to see if I have anything interesting to say. I'm sorry to say that I'm off being a proud and enthusiastic single parent to my 6 1/2 yr. old daughter; or most likely working like mad at my piano playing and song writing, trying to make a joyful noise that points to the Lord; or maybe I just put shoes on a draft horse and I'm to tired right now to do anything but move my eyes; or hopefully studying scripture so that I can be a useful member for the body of Christ. Who knows? But thanks for being out there willing to talk about the things we find exciting about scripture together. I suppose that's one of the ways all the members of the Body stay connected. Until I can make enough money at studying the Word and writing and playing piano to that end, I guess I'll see you here and there from time to time. And that should be more than sufficient. I thank Christ for all of the sufficiency, and the excitment that someone who loves God's word has stopped by.
Todd
Todd
Monday, October 31, 2005
Witness Error, Mistaken Identity
After reading a periodic post by Josh on his Human Relations blog, I thought that I would get some of my experiences with the "jehovah witness" religion on the record as well. As a Christian, the differences you have with them begin as soon as they come in the door. They have their own translation of the Bible, which was created along the same line of agenda driven thinking as the original Bible study which propelled the early JW,s back in the early 1800's. And everything that emanates from that unique and distorted treatment of God's Word follows suit.
But when I let my JW friends in the house again yesterday, as always, I regard it as a chance to sharpen myself. Like the Proverb that says something like, "Like stone on stone, men sharpen each other". I have a hard time thinking on my feet and they give me an opportunity to practice the live discussion of God's Word. They seldom argue, and so it's a nice opportunity to share what the Bible says and converse with someone who does not get into a heated arguement. Frankly, it's hard anywhere to find people who enjoy talking about the things they find exciting about the Scripture. However, with these folks, once every few months is more than enough. The material they've been taught is so layered, and crafted in such a way, that they can't give you a straight answer about anything. Nothing, in itself, can they put forward as an answer to my curiosities about their beliefs, but, layer upon layer of disconnected "almost truths". "Almost truths" are not even "half truths", but "non-truths" that sound great as they are being hastily put in front of you...along side all their spectacular contorted artwork to look at. But their evasiveness and procrastination , always telling you that they will get to your question in a while, or next time, marks them as extremely well trained. They cannot sum up their beliefs in an intelligible and contrite way. Making them highly suspicious in their sincerety. I suppose they are afraid it will sound plain ludicrous.
But they don't hold a candle to the mormons. Those guys are out there propounding an amazing mental bellyflop which is based on a dangerous fairytale. And they're destined to overtake Christianity in esteem and popularity the way it seems to be going. They can be a useful teaching tool as an example of what people are capable of believing...however, I suppose, to a much greater degree, they represent a heart breakingly gullible lot.
All you need to get through these episodes is a good literal rendering of what God has told us so far. A version of the Bible that corresponds to what the Author actually said to the guys he picked to say it to. He could not have said all of the things He is alleged to have said in these various fashion marketing Bibles because they all say things that mean something different from each other. That can't be Truth. They come mostly from sincere people who are simply confused and so they changed their rendering of the Bible to mean something that wasn't as confusing to them. Thinking they were saying it better than God could say it. Instead of seeking out someone who could show them how to work through the Bible, and let the Bible itself, alleviate their confusion. That's what Paul said to Timothy. He said to study, and to study all Scripture. Because that's what Paul had been taught by God. Not a bad Teacher. Jesus said not bread alone but EVERY word that comes from the mouth of God was necessary for Life. Part of it, without the rest, may mess you up but the whole thing in completeness will make sense. Certainly seems to me like what, in part, He's saying.
And not a bad teacher as well is Rhinelander Bible Church with regards to questions on exactly where the jehovah's witness's part company with Scripture. Not something very high on the list of "things of interest", but we certainly wouldn't hesitate to assist anyone who finds themselves at a loss when confronted with the JW's. And I better make it clear that I speak for myself and not in any way for Rhinelander Bible Church. I'm simply looking for an excuse to get off of this subject and on to something more worthwhile, while holding the door open for anyone who might need some help seeing past the lack of sound doctrine of the JW's. It's hard as a Christian to tell someone who comes to your door and allegedly wants to talk about Christ, to get lost. Until, that is, you find out how offensive their ideas are to Scripture.
But when I let my JW friends in the house again yesterday, as always, I regard it as a chance to sharpen myself. Like the Proverb that says something like, "Like stone on stone, men sharpen each other". I have a hard time thinking on my feet and they give me an opportunity to practice the live discussion of God's Word. They seldom argue, and so it's a nice opportunity to share what the Bible says and converse with someone who does not get into a heated arguement. Frankly, it's hard anywhere to find people who enjoy talking about the things they find exciting about the Scripture. However, with these folks, once every few months is more than enough. The material they've been taught is so layered, and crafted in such a way, that they can't give you a straight answer about anything. Nothing, in itself, can they put forward as an answer to my curiosities about their beliefs, but, layer upon layer of disconnected "almost truths". "Almost truths" are not even "half truths", but "non-truths" that sound great as they are being hastily put in front of you...along side all their spectacular contorted artwork to look at. But their evasiveness and procrastination , always telling you that they will get to your question in a while, or next time, marks them as extremely well trained. They cannot sum up their beliefs in an intelligible and contrite way. Making them highly suspicious in their sincerety. I suppose they are afraid it will sound plain ludicrous.
But they don't hold a candle to the mormons. Those guys are out there propounding an amazing mental bellyflop which is based on a dangerous fairytale. And they're destined to overtake Christianity in esteem and popularity the way it seems to be going. They can be a useful teaching tool as an example of what people are capable of believing...however, I suppose, to a much greater degree, they represent a heart breakingly gullible lot.
All you need to get through these episodes is a good literal rendering of what God has told us so far. A version of the Bible that corresponds to what the Author actually said to the guys he picked to say it to. He could not have said all of the things He is alleged to have said in these various fashion marketing Bibles because they all say things that mean something different from each other. That can't be Truth. They come mostly from sincere people who are simply confused and so they changed their rendering of the Bible to mean something that wasn't as confusing to them. Thinking they were saying it better than God could say it. Instead of seeking out someone who could show them how to work through the Bible, and let the Bible itself, alleviate their confusion. That's what Paul said to Timothy. He said to study, and to study all Scripture. Because that's what Paul had been taught by God. Not a bad Teacher. Jesus said not bread alone but EVERY word that comes from the mouth of God was necessary for Life. Part of it, without the rest, may mess you up but the whole thing in completeness will make sense. Certainly seems to me like what, in part, He's saying.
And not a bad teacher as well is Rhinelander Bible Church with regards to questions on exactly where the jehovah's witness's part company with Scripture. Not something very high on the list of "things of interest", but we certainly wouldn't hesitate to assist anyone who finds themselves at a loss when confronted with the JW's. And I better make it clear that I speak for myself and not in any way for Rhinelander Bible Church. I'm simply looking for an excuse to get off of this subject and on to something more worthwhile, while holding the door open for anyone who might need some help seeing past the lack of sound doctrine of the JW's. It's hard as a Christian to tell someone who comes to your door and allegedly wants to talk about Christ, to get lost. Until, that is, you find out how offensive their ideas are to Scripture.
Tuesday, October 25, 2005
What are your neighbors doing?
The other day I was traveling along in my car listening to a Christian radio station and a blurb which was named Parable (something or other) came on and a young fellow, and by that I mean somewhere between a boy and a man, said, "Today's parable is...'Don't think only about your own affairs, but be interested in others, too, and what they are doing'. As it reads in the New Living Translation of the Holy Bible". "Thank you," he said, "this has been the Parable of the day", or parable something or other. Well, it was not a parable. But that is not what struck me. I sat there and I thought to myself, what... what in the world does that mean? This is Truth here, after all, that we are dealing with. What is the truth that is revealed in this verse, I asked myself? I couldn't get anything out of it. I thought of many things it may mean. Like, be interested in other people's business and what they are doing. Why? Where is the eternal value in that. Does that just open the door for nosy people. Or for people to involve themselves in affairs of another that they just have no place in. Affairs which they do not have sufficient information about or may not even be able to understand. In many situations it's not o.k. to stick your nose in other peoples business. Does that mean a believer is obliged to share his personal affairs with other believers upon their request? At best, it sounded like a poor representation of a bible verse.
So I finally looked at the verse and what it said, at home one day, with the aid of a few other resources. Along with a Greek dictionary, I looked at the verse in the KJV, NIV, and my NASV. And of course, read the whole first, second, and third chapter of Philippians, to gain the perspective of what was being talked about. I came to the crux of the problem I was having when I saw the verse in my interlineary Bible translation of Greek and English.
A rendering of the verse in the New American Standard Bible reads,
Phil. 2:3-4, "Do nothing from selfishness or vain conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves, do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others".
...which seems to include and summarize all of the Greek words that were written in the original text of verse 4 as well as verse 3, of which it was a part. The original text which we can trace back to being in circulation at the time of the lives of the apostles. A letter which Paul wrote to the church of Philippi in which he left nothing to interpretation. He never did. There was one truth, and Christ had chosen him and the other apostles to deliver that truth.
The verse that I heard on the radio, that made no sense to me, seemed to even contradict a valuable principle contained in the rest of the New Testament, which was to worry about only yourself, and not others. Something a parent is constantly trying to teach their child.
And then I saw in the Greek that there was nothing provided for the NLT's use of the word "what". The interpreters who had written that verse in the New Living Translation added a word that you just can't get out of the Greek text. And they wrote it at the expense of what Christ really meant in Paul's letter, which had a larger meaning of not just "what" but also "how" these other people are doing. If He even meant "what" at all. The interpreters of the NLT also wrote verse four as a complete sentence, whereas in the Greek text, verse four is the second half of a larger sentence. To make verse 4 a complete sentence, standing alone, is changing it from what Christ told Paul. In the interpreters (translators) attempts to somehow make it easier to understand, they made it mean something different in their NLT. They took all of the Truth out of it. It's a beautiful verse which, among other things, offers us some ways and means by which we can regard others as more important than ourselves, and truly show our humility. Which is very hard to do. But it's even harder without a true representation of what God is telling us. Be careful out there with all of those "message" bibles. If one allows someone to get between them and the Word as it was delivered to Paul and the other apostles, and recorded in their letters to us, exactly as it was Breathed to them, then, it just might not be the Truth anymore.
So I finally looked at the verse and what it said, at home one day, with the aid of a few other resources. Along with a Greek dictionary, I looked at the verse in the KJV, NIV, and my NASV. And of course, read the whole first, second, and third chapter of Philippians, to gain the perspective of what was being talked about. I came to the crux of the problem I was having when I saw the verse in my interlineary Bible translation of Greek and English.
A rendering of the verse in the New American Standard Bible reads,
Phil. 2:3-4, "Do nothing from selfishness or vain conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves, do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others".
...which seems to include and summarize all of the Greek words that were written in the original text of verse 4 as well as verse 3, of which it was a part. The original text which we can trace back to being in circulation at the time of the lives of the apostles. A letter which Paul wrote to the church of Philippi in which he left nothing to interpretation. He never did. There was one truth, and Christ had chosen him and the other apostles to deliver that truth.
The verse that I heard on the radio, that made no sense to me, seemed to even contradict a valuable principle contained in the rest of the New Testament, which was to worry about only yourself, and not others. Something a parent is constantly trying to teach their child.
And then I saw in the Greek that there was nothing provided for the NLT's use of the word "what". The interpreters who had written that verse in the New Living Translation added a word that you just can't get out of the Greek text. And they wrote it at the expense of what Christ really meant in Paul's letter, which had a larger meaning of not just "what" but also "how" these other people are doing. If He even meant "what" at all. The interpreters of the NLT also wrote verse four as a complete sentence, whereas in the Greek text, verse four is the second half of a larger sentence. To make verse 4 a complete sentence, standing alone, is changing it from what Christ told Paul. In the interpreters (translators) attempts to somehow make it easier to understand, they made it mean something different in their NLT. They took all of the Truth out of it. It's a beautiful verse which, among other things, offers us some ways and means by which we can regard others as more important than ourselves, and truly show our humility. Which is very hard to do. But it's even harder without a true representation of what God is telling us. Be careful out there with all of those "message" bibles. If one allows someone to get between them and the Word as it was delivered to Paul and the other apostles, and recorded in their letters to us, exactly as it was Breathed to them, then, it just might not be the Truth anymore.
Saturday, October 15, 2005
Exorcise or be exorcised???
Well here's a little exercise. This is an excerpt from a Reuters news article dated 10-13-05 on a Vatican sponsored class on exorcism:
One is Father Gabriele Nanni, who attended Thursday's opening class and spoke to Reuters during a break."First thing is the priest has to know if the devil is at work in a person or if the problem is somewhere else," he said.Nanni said there are four sure signs that pointed to demonic possession rather than psychological problems.He listed them as:"When someone speaks or understands languages they normally do not; when their physical strength is disproportionate to their body size or age; when they are suddenly knowledgeable about occult practices; when they have a physical aversion to sacred things, such as the communion host or prayers".
After attending several catholic weddings, I could envision this:
There was a time when very few of the catholic priests understood or could speak Latin; that wasn't a requirement for priesthood. Many priests came from poor uneducated backgrounds and were simply taught to pronounce the words to give mass, speaking a language they normally do not. Regarding strength in proportion to body size, I've seen catholic priests who were very big and whose lack of strength was very disproportionate to their body size. Occult practices are manmade, satan doesn't have an instruction book, all one needs to do is consult his fleshly mind and no doubt could conjure up any number of things satan would approve of. And then, finally, at these catholic weddings, I've seen a priest who had a terrible aversion to other members of the body of Christ who happend not to belong to the catholic church, but who God still considers sanctified in Christ, and would not allow them to take part in the Christian fellowship of communion or prayers. Showing an aversion to sacred things himself. Is this priest then, a person with psychological problems, or is satan in him (he seems to share the four sure signs of demonic possession as described by the Vatican), or is he just a victim of himself? Or maybe a victim of bad bible teaching?
But getting back to the class on exorcism. "Speaks or understands languages they normally do not."??? Could this be a Vatican sponsored plan to systematically rid the world of present day "speakers of tongues"? Or will the so-called tongues speakers be saved by the fact that they don't actually speak the intelligable tongues of other nations, as the tongues speakers of the early forming Christian Church were gifted with to prepare them to go out to other lands?
It certainly is hard to remain serious in the face of all of this.
One is Father Gabriele Nanni, who attended Thursday's opening class and spoke to Reuters during a break."First thing is the priest has to know if the devil is at work in a person or if the problem is somewhere else," he said.Nanni said there are four sure signs that pointed to demonic possession rather than psychological problems.He listed them as:"When someone speaks or understands languages they normally do not; when their physical strength is disproportionate to their body size or age; when they are suddenly knowledgeable about occult practices; when they have a physical aversion to sacred things, such as the communion host or prayers".
After attending several catholic weddings, I could envision this:
There was a time when very few of the catholic priests understood or could speak Latin; that wasn't a requirement for priesthood. Many priests came from poor uneducated backgrounds and were simply taught to pronounce the words to give mass, speaking a language they normally do not. Regarding strength in proportion to body size, I've seen catholic priests who were very big and whose lack of strength was very disproportionate to their body size. Occult practices are manmade, satan doesn't have an instruction book, all one needs to do is consult his fleshly mind and no doubt could conjure up any number of things satan would approve of. And then, finally, at these catholic weddings, I've seen a priest who had a terrible aversion to other members of the body of Christ who happend not to belong to the catholic church, but who God still considers sanctified in Christ, and would not allow them to take part in the Christian fellowship of communion or prayers. Showing an aversion to sacred things himself. Is this priest then, a person with psychological problems, or is satan in him (he seems to share the four sure signs of demonic possession as described by the Vatican), or is he just a victim of himself? Or maybe a victim of bad bible teaching?
But getting back to the class on exorcism. "Speaks or understands languages they normally do not."??? Could this be a Vatican sponsored plan to systematically rid the world of present day "speakers of tongues"? Or will the so-called tongues speakers be saved by the fact that they don't actually speak the intelligable tongues of other nations, as the tongues speakers of the early forming Christian Church were gifted with to prepare them to go out to other lands?
It certainly is hard to remain serious in the face of all of this.
Saturday, October 01, 2005
For Instance...
"Almighty God," wrote Comenius in one of his books, "what is happening? Must the whole world perish?" And, with many thanks to God, the answer is, in due time, yes. My flesh does not want the world to perish. But my flesh is dead with no hope except to grow old, and useless, and die, leaving a world, which is visibly decaying year by year ever since its creation, a better place? Really? Maybe the flesh that follows for a brief while until it too realizes that your satisfied fleshly lusts finally leave you empty. Luckily God has shown me how to keep my mind set on the Spirit.
I'm constantly being plagued by the dilemma of how to raise my 6 year old daughter, with the help as well as the hindrance of public school, within a model of a world view that allows her to live "in the world" physically, but "apart" from the world spiritually.
The title that Comenius gave his allegory "The Labyrinth of the World and the Paradise of the Heart" seems to have the components that help describe the world we are told we live in by the New Testament. I think I'm going to familiarize myself with Comenius' works and see how he might help me put into practice the knowledge and wisdom of the gospel of God and pass it along to my daughter. The credit for putting Comenius in front of me would go first to Christianity Today and then to deadchristianssociety.blog.com. The credit for Comenius, to Jesus Christ. Next time!
I'm constantly being plagued by the dilemma of how to raise my 6 year old daughter, with the help as well as the hindrance of public school, within a model of a world view that allows her to live "in the world" physically, but "apart" from the world spiritually.
The title that Comenius gave his allegory "The Labyrinth of the World and the Paradise of the Heart" seems to have the components that help describe the world we are told we live in by the New Testament. I think I'm going to familiarize myself with Comenius' works and see how he might help me put into practice the knowledge and wisdom of the gospel of God and pass it along to my daughter. The credit for putting Comenius in front of me would go first to Christianity Today and then to deadchristianssociety.blog.com. The credit for Comenius, to Jesus Christ. Next time!
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