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Domine Fili Unigenite (Only Begotten Lord and Son of God...) by Antonio Vivaldi.
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...with my other favorite:
Gloria
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Friday, December 22, 2006
Tuesday, December 19, 2006
Thursday, December 14, 2006
John 6 and Election
I have here an piece of exegesis on John chapter 6 done by a speaker who is a leading apologist for a major branch of theology and whose name I do not remember. I had it saved to a draft for a few months and thought I would now just get some critical thoughts down regarding its accuracy. The following is that piece of scriptural interpretation from the speaker who's name I have misplaced.
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John 6 and Election:
We see clearly in John 6 that faith is the gift of God given only to those whom God has chosen. Jesus says in v. 35, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.” The words “comes” and “believes” in this sentence mutually interpret one another, so that both designate a coming and believing that saves, for those who come to Jesus and believe in him find life through his death.9 Two verses later we read, “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out” (John 6:37). It is evident from v. 35 that “comes” is another way of speaking of believing. Furthermore, the coming and believing in both vv. 35 and 37 clearly refer to the actions of individuals, for John uses the third person singular.10 Verse 37 also teaches that all those given by the Father to the Son will come to the Son, and that all those who come will be received by the Son. In other words, all those given by the Father to the Son will believe in the Son. The text does not say that only some of those given by the Father to the Son will come to the Son, but all of those given will come and believe. It is clear that not all human beings come to the Son, for not all believe.11 So, only some come to the Son, and those who do come have been given by the Father to the Son, and all those given by the Father to the Son come, so that it follows that those who come do so because the Father has given them to the Son. Moreover, v. 44 clarifies that human beings who do not come to the Son have not been drawn by the Father. “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.” Those who do not come refuse to believe because they were not given by the Father to the Son. We can conclude, then, that John 6 teaches individual election unto salvation. All those given by the Father to the Son will come to faith, whereas those not drawn by theFather cannot and will not come.__________________________
Here is the above text again with my comments intermingled in blue:
We see clearly in John 6 that faith is the gift of God given only to those whom God has chosen. Jesus says in v. 35, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.”
I think it's much more clear that this is a wide open invitation to, "whomever comes to me", than it a statement about who are, "those whom God has chosen". The word 'clearly' here would have to be strictly rhetorical and actually comes back to betray the speaker.
The words “comes” and “believes” in this sentence mutually interpret one another
No they don't. They are distinct by their seperation and individual use. As well as difference in definition. Yes, they have a pairing in the Greek however that pairing does not guarantee the tenuous point the speaker is trying to conclude.
so that both designate a coming and believing that saves, for those who come to Jesus and believe in him find life through his death.9
Come and believe here are two separate verbs and ideas. Both able to and intended to stand alone.
Two verses later we read, “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out” (John 6:37). It is evident from v. 35 that “comes” is another way of speaking of believing.
Not evident to me. What is evident to me is that it is 'apart from' and 'precedes' believing.
Furthermore, the coming and believing in both vv. 35 and 37 clearly refer to the actions of individuals, for John uses the third person singular.10 Verse 37 also teaches that all those given by the Father to the Son will come to the Son, and that all those who come will be received by the Son.
It doesn’t say they are raised or saved, just recieved. Where else is recieved used synonymously with saved?
In other words, all those given by the Father to the Son will believe in the Son.
No, that they will just come.
The text does not say that only some of those given by the Father to the Son will come to the Son, but all of those given will come and believe.
Does it say ‘come and believe’? No, ‘come and not be caste out’.
It is clear that not all human beings come to the Son, for not all believe.
It does not say that. There's that 'clear' word again. Danger.
11 So, only some come to the Son, and those who do come have been given by the Father to the Son, and all those given by the Father to the Son come, so that it follows that those who come do so because the Father has given them to the Son. Moreover, v. 44 clarifies that human beings who do not come to the Son have not been drawn by the Father. “Noone can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.” Those who do not come refuse to believe because they were not given by the Father to the Son.
No, just that they were not drawn and therefore cannot believe.
We can conclude, then, that John 6 teaches individual election unto salvation.
Yes we can.
All those given by the Father to the Son will come to faith,
Where does this one come from. Someone forgot to explain this one. This statement has been rejected, please reinsert in the appropriate passage of scripture.
whereas those not drawn by the Father cannot and will not come.
We still can't be sure how it all works so just be glad you have an inkling of how part of it works and beware of any grand conclusions.
It's interesting, as you follow this thread of reasoning, and how after you go along and string all of these words together and come up with something sounding like a fairly convincing riddle, that you are left with absolutely no guarantee that you have the answer right. I think that sort of reasoning would be much more accessible to me if the pope had a bounty on my head such as he did on Calvin's. It lacks truth.
_____________________________________
We sometimes look inside the apostles words to see if there is even more meaning than they knew they were recieving, not the things they had heard during their time spent listening to Jesus and recited later on, but more meaning from what they were taught by the Spirit than they were even aware of themselves, as if we can somehow read their minds and recieve more than even they did...and satan beholds an opportunity. Don't let him have it._____________________________________
__________________________
John 6 and Election:
We see clearly in John 6 that faith is the gift of God given only to those whom God has chosen. Jesus says in v. 35, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.” The words “comes” and “believes” in this sentence mutually interpret one another, so that both designate a coming and believing that saves, for those who come to Jesus and believe in him find life through his death.9 Two verses later we read, “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out” (John 6:37). It is evident from v. 35 that “comes” is another way of speaking of believing. Furthermore, the coming and believing in both vv. 35 and 37 clearly refer to the actions of individuals, for John uses the third person singular.10 Verse 37 also teaches that all those given by the Father to the Son will come to the Son, and that all those who come will be received by the Son. In other words, all those given by the Father to the Son will believe in the Son. The text does not say that only some of those given by the Father to the Son will come to the Son, but all of those given will come and believe. It is clear that not all human beings come to the Son, for not all believe.11 So, only some come to the Son, and those who do come have been given by the Father to the Son, and all those given by the Father to the Son come, so that it follows that those who come do so because the Father has given them to the Son. Moreover, v. 44 clarifies that human beings who do not come to the Son have not been drawn by the Father. “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.” Those who do not come refuse to believe because they were not given by the Father to the Son. We can conclude, then, that John 6 teaches individual election unto salvation. All those given by the Father to the Son will come to faith, whereas those not drawn by theFather cannot and will not come.__________________________
Here is the above text again with my comments intermingled in blue:
We see clearly in John 6 that faith is the gift of God given only to those whom God has chosen. Jesus says in v. 35, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.”
I think it's much more clear that this is a wide open invitation to, "whomever comes to me", than it a statement about who are, "those whom God has chosen". The word 'clearly' here would have to be strictly rhetorical and actually comes back to betray the speaker.
The words “comes” and “believes” in this sentence mutually interpret one another
No they don't. They are distinct by their seperation and individual use. As well as difference in definition. Yes, they have a pairing in the Greek however that pairing does not guarantee the tenuous point the speaker is trying to conclude.
so that both designate a coming and believing that saves, for those who come to Jesus and believe in him find life through his death.9
Come and believe here are two separate verbs and ideas. Both able to and intended to stand alone.
Two verses later we read, “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out” (John 6:37). It is evident from v. 35 that “comes” is another way of speaking of believing.
Not evident to me. What is evident to me is that it is 'apart from' and 'precedes' believing.
Furthermore, the coming and believing in both vv. 35 and 37 clearly refer to the actions of individuals, for John uses the third person singular.10 Verse 37 also teaches that all those given by the Father to the Son will come to the Son, and that all those who come will be received by the Son.
It doesn’t say they are raised or saved, just recieved. Where else is recieved used synonymously with saved?
In other words, all those given by the Father to the Son will believe in the Son.
No, that they will just come.
The text does not say that only some of those given by the Father to the Son will come to the Son, but all of those given will come and believe.
Does it say ‘come and believe’? No, ‘come and not be caste out’.
It is clear that not all human beings come to the Son, for not all believe.
It does not say that. There's that 'clear' word again. Danger.
11 So, only some come to the Son, and those who do come have been given by the Father to the Son, and all those given by the Father to the Son come, so that it follows that those who come do so because the Father has given them to the Son. Moreover, v. 44 clarifies that human beings who do not come to the Son have not been drawn by the Father. “Noone can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.” Those who do not come refuse to believe because they were not given by the Father to the Son.
No, just that they were not drawn and therefore cannot believe.
We can conclude, then, that John 6 teaches individual election unto salvation.
Yes we can.
All those given by the Father to the Son will come to faith,
Where does this one come from. Someone forgot to explain this one. This statement has been rejected, please reinsert in the appropriate passage of scripture.
whereas those not drawn by the Father cannot and will not come.
We still can't be sure how it all works so just be glad you have an inkling of how part of it works and beware of any grand conclusions.
It's interesting, as you follow this thread of reasoning, and how after you go along and string all of these words together and come up with something sounding like a fairly convincing riddle, that you are left with absolutely no guarantee that you have the answer right. I think that sort of reasoning would be much more accessible to me if the pope had a bounty on my head such as he did on Calvin's. It lacks truth.
_____________________________________
We sometimes look inside the apostles words to see if there is even more meaning than they knew they were recieving, not the things they had heard during their time spent listening to Jesus and recited later on, but more meaning from what they were taught by the Spirit than they were even aware of themselves, as if we can somehow read their minds and recieve more than even they did...and satan beholds an opportunity. Don't let him have it._____________________________________
Friday, December 08, 2006
Another Nice Carol
This John Rutter tune is another nice carol which the choir I'm singing in is doing.
What Sweeter Music.
The Choir of King's College in Cambridge does an excellent job. Here's a link to the cd homepage to listen to more inspirational christian selections from this Christmas cd.
On Christmas Day: New Carols From the Kings.
What Sweeter Music.
The Choir of King's College in Cambridge does an excellent job. Here's a link to the cd homepage to listen to more inspirational christian selections from this Christmas cd.
On Christmas Day: New Carols From the Kings.
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