Wednesday, December 03, 2008

I'm still wondering, "How do we know whether or not present day 'tongues' are false tongues?"

And with that, here's another simple related question that came to my mind when I was asked "whether or not I believe 'tongues' are meant for the present time."?

I wondered, "Are there authentically biblical 'tongues' going on in the present time?" Or, have they gone on anywhere since the first century? Does their authentic practice actually exist somewhere now?

These are questions that will quickly get you charged with being "judgmental" or "argumentative" or ("stupid" or)"not meditating on scripture deeply enough". Charges people will forward in order that they don't have to think about such difficult yet important things. We are not taught how to approach tough questions we face when confronted with conflicting Christian teachings. We are taught rather, against reason, that conflicting teachings are acceptable. But the mind of Christ is not "double-minded", and these tough questions are what an honest and sound mind should ask, when faced with multiple conflicting Christian teachings, and should insist upon tough answers.

But here's the real problem I had with the question I was asked as to "whether or not I believe tongues are meant for the present time". I don't think it's a matter of 'believing', or 'not believing' whether or not they are meant for the present, but rather, either they 'are' truly here somewhere today, or they are not. Since they are intended for the unbeliever, they would be able to be seen and heard, and understood, by unbelievers. At the same time they would be able to be seen and heard, and understood, by other believers. Are the scriptural 'tongues' of Mark 16 or Acts 2 here now anywhere and able to be seen and heard?

Do real 'tongues' exist anywhere in the 'present'? My understanding tells me no. Scripture says maybe, but not what we're seeing practiced today by people in the Charismatic church. But when I'm asked "whether or not I believe tongues are for today" by a charismatic and say, "no", because what I'm seeing today appears to be false tongues, I'm told that actually they are for the present day because he/she does them, and so they must be for today, and that if I meditate deeply enough on scripture I will see it. But it can't be whether I believe they are here now or not. Either they are here now, and we can point to them, see and understand them, or we can't, and they are not.

Which then brings us back to the main question. "How do we know whether or not present day 'tongues' are false tongues"?

I think there are people from many religions doing what they believe to be speaking in tongues. Many people from Native American Indian, African, Eastern religions, and etc. claim to do it. But the source of them all cannot be the same God. And surely not the God who came in the flesh and delivered His very Word of Truth to us as it stands in the Bible. He's not the author of those tongues. Those are the tongues, apparently, of other gods whom one day will be no use to them.

But specifically, "are present day 'tongues' and some of the tongues we read about being spoken at Corinth false tongues"?

What are false tongues? Are they even spoken of in the Bible? Are we truly at the mercy of "discerners of spirits" to know whether a 'tongue' being spoken is from a good spirit or bad spirit? Are there, in this present age, all of these spirits, that is, spirits of men, spirits of angels, some of light, some of darkness, and demons wanting to speak to us on Sunday morning in our Charismatic church's?

Or is it simply "learned" behavior, an imitation somehow, behavior glorying in some natural impulses that seem spiritual and come from our flesh?

As 'speaking in tongues' is practiced today, we can be sure that it is done in a way prohibited in scripture. The "unknowable tongues" admittedly cannot be interpreted. They don't even fit the definition of gift of tongues if they are not in a known language. Yet they are spoken, when scripture tells them to be interpreted or to be silent. That's disobedience to scripture. But...that seldom phases anyone born after the Age of Enlightenment. Now days many of us just accept that we will sin here and there, and then thank the Lord for His law of liberty. Except the Law of Liberty does not allow for willful sin.

In my last post, over a month ago, I was discussing 'speaking in tongues' with a gracious fellow who claimed to be a "speaker of tongues", and an "interpreter of tongues". I was forced to consider this practice more thoroughly than I ever had in the past. Our discussion left us at complete odds with each other. Him, the possessor of a marvelous visible gift from God, and me, someone not yet able to see it, or to read and understand certain things in scripture. We looked at scripture together and nothing changed in our position toward one another. Is the answer to the unlock the impasse able to be found in scripture? Does scripture perform what it promises to the seeker of knowledge? Are answers to discussions such as these attainable or does it purposefully leave us fractured like he and I?

(There are men who would teach, that scripture in certain instances, leaves us fractured 'beyond our control' due to us being mere men of limited understanding. But isn't that type of teaching actually faulty. Isn't that "man's" own teaching? Because with the mind of Christ are we not more than merely darkness bound men anymore, condemned to quarreling about the Truth?. Doesn't that sort of teaching mentality which men use to stay entrenched in their differences actually stem from some ungifted teachers simply stubbornly wanting to believe what they want to believe? Aren't we asked to prove everything by scripture? And then also to avoid controversy? Is there even one controversy within the church Body that edifies it? There are common and popular controversies which keep Christians battling each other, almost as if it's a sport, with one eye in the word, and the other eye in the theological wisdom of their favortie man, only to cause them to, once in a while, bolt to the other side and continue to battle against their former allies, all the while relying on someone else's understanding from scripture instead of patiently allowing solely scripture to build their understanding. So I would argue that when we take the abundance of available straightforward directives of scripture, we are fully equipped with all spiritual wisdom and knowledge to answer any reasonable question plainly and confidently. And that there is one faithful Truth.)
So what are "false tongues"? Is there such a thing as a false tongue?

The question that plagues me is , "Are there 'tongues' today at all"? I've seen and heard so-called 'tongues' and have yet to see one that meets the Bible's definition.

Another question that leaps to mind here is, "Has there been a 'tongue' spoken since the first century, or so, that has been verified as being Divinely breathed"? Has it occurred to anyone that, 'speaking in new tongues', is the only sign from Mark 16(below) that cannot be easily verified as to it's source? God or counterfeit? That poses a problem. Maybe the Lord has provided the solution for that problem. But first here's another valid question. "Is there a "gift of tongues", that applies to the present time, in other words, now, mentioned in prophecy? I haven't found one yet.

Is the passage of Mark 16: 16-17 explaining present day "tongues"? Aside from the sign of 'tongues', where are all of these other signs today? Is it only coincidence that 'tongues' is the only one, of all these signs, that we see today? And might that have anything to do with it being the most difficult to verify(verily, verily - truly, truly)? Why haven't any believers or unbelievers I know seen anything resembling real 'speakers of new tongues"? Why haven't any of the believer's I know, except the so-called "prayers in tongues", found themselves possessing the 'gift of tongues', or any of the 'sign gifts' in Mark 6? Might this have a bearing on how we can know if a sign was meant for today or not? Whether any of the signs at all from Mark 6 exists in that context today? Or by asking in what way the present day 'gift' resembles what was foretold of in scripture to see if it matches with what scripture is speaking of? I believe it would have to go a long way to answering What? Where? When? How? and Why? and what sort of 'tongues' are present today.

Were they for the apostles time? Yes, but then for how long?

Mark 16:14-19
Afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reproached them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen. And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed.] [And they promptly reported all these instructions to Peter and his companions. And after that, Jesus Himself sent out through them from east to west the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation. ]

Where are they now???

"The Lord worked with them , and confirmed the word by the signs that followed".

"...Jesus Himself sent out through them...the sacred... proclamation...".

This shows these signs were meant especially for the apostles. Exclusively? Perhaps it would have been convenient if Peter had asked, as he did in Luke 12:41, "...Lord, are you addressing this parable to us, or to everyone else as well?" No, most likely not exclusively for the apostles but then probably not far from their authority and teaching either.

Does God use signs to help confirm His word today? Most definitely, but the 'tongues' signs presented today in the Charismatic church only serve to throw things into suspicion and consternation.

If they happened today would we know it? Yes. They would be spoken for a reason, have meaning unto our benefit, be able to be understood and interpreted, and would carry unmistakable Divine content. They would glorify our Lord in a sure way.

Did they fade away as the apostles passed on and the Bible was finished? Is this what Paul meant when he said that 'tongues' will fade away? They certainly have faded, but completely away as signs? Surely God's miracles happen every minute of the day, but were the signs spoken of in this passage different than what we see today only in the charismatic church? The original gift of tongues were meant to command attention and be convicting. To be seen and believed. These are not the ones you find today. The original signs are not the ones you see today on the Benny Hinn show. Are the original sign gifts the ones that you see presented in Charismatic churches on Sunday morning?

And are there two different kinds of "gifts of tongues" as the charismatic would teach today? One spoken of in Acts 2, and the other in 1 Cor. 14:2, and confirmed in 1 Cor. 12:10. Two different kinds of 'gift of tongues', "that should not be mixed up", as a charismatic would say? If that were the case then shouldn't we have further instruction from somewhere as to exactly 'how' there are two different kinds of tongues, and how each should be handled? But aren't 'tongues' the same everywhere they are mentioned in the Bible - that is, known languages with meaning - except in 1 Cor. 14:2?

In v. 14:2, is Paul describing a second kind of tongue which has a different source and a different destination than the first kind. One is from God to unbelievers, through believers; and the other, the Spirit, speaking to God, through the believer, by the believer? Or is Paul actually describing a prevalent, 'man breathed' tongue, being practiced there in Corinth, and not the God breathed "gift"? It's "the tongues of men and of angels". The charismatic claims it to be the Spirit expressing things from a persons heart, that the person themselves cannot express, coming out of the speaker amidst the congregation, as a language that is 'unknowable' and impossible to interpret. This was silenced by Paul. In the modern Charismatic church this requires "discerners of spirits" to tell if it is a good spirit or not. Or if it is God's Spirit or some other spirit. This "praying in tongues" sounds something like would be described as a form of incoherent gibberish, or nonsensical talking. The charismatics call it "praying in tongues" and say it is, in effect, the Spirit's interpreting to God those inexpressible things that are on your heart.

Where else does scripture help us with this unsettling 'second kind of tongue' that presumably Mark 16 now has to make room for? Or can it? The charismatic would like it to, but wouldn't this 'second kind' of tongue be an altogether different kind of thing than is mentioned anywhere in scripture. Wouldn't this be a tongue whereby others are expected to watch the Spirit talking to God from someone else's soul? Is this believable from scripture? I have to admit that that proposition instead defies my belief altogether. O.k. I'm sure this would be where I am told to meditate more deeply into scripture, and see how this would truly be a neat thing. A neat thing to watch the Spirit of God interceding to God before our very eyes. That is if it's truly God. If it is not then the "discerner of spirits" will know. But if it's not , then, where did God go? Why didn't He show up this time? That one sounds like God to me? Are you sure that's not God? How do we know? Where's the rule book again? What a scary circus this is.

Be patient and we'll find out what scripture says. Oh, this will be nothing that will shake any charismatic's belief, nor will it really be anything new. But it will be a sound basis for understanding the next time someone gets ambushed by a charismatic Christian. That is my hope anyway. If you get bored, then consider the 'tongues' comments from my last post, which are really not all that insightful, and please feel free to forward your own understanding. I've come a long way in the last couple of weeks in my understanding of what going on in this area, all credit going to God and the Scriptures, and I'm ready to start drawing some reliable scripture honoring conclusions. My love for these charismatic brothers and sisters of ours is great, and that demands not sugar-coating any admonishments for them from scripture. Scripture speaks clearly in this area presenting no matters left open for debate. But it's going to take another week or two to get it down in a respectful fashion. There is not a whole lot more to say really. I just have to try and get it said right. Thanks for stopping by.

(Just one of those lingering notes here). Would He leave us hearing an "unknowable" tongue, not knowing whether it's a word of encouragement, or a deadly arrow, speaking deceit or setting an ambush?(Jer. 9:8) Can't we be assured that He would not?

_____________________________________
I'm starting here as a continuation of the above, as well as the lengthy comments taken from my discussion in the 'comments' section of the previous post with Paul G., the "speaker of tongues" and "interpreter of tongues" which you can get to through "this link here" .

The "speakers of tongues' in the Charismatic church are not displaying the biblical 'Gift of Tongues":

1.) Anytime they are tested by proving the 'speaker' against the 'interpreter', and then looking at the message 'spoken', they come up false. It's just that simple. Not "empty", false. Well, that's awfully presumptuous for me to say, doesn't it seem like? And exceedingly insensitive? Probably dangerously judgemental? No, I'm simply stating the obvious and the verifiable. Not to impugn anyone or demean anyone, but simply to look at this, held up to what tests we have from scripture, and from nature, to clear things up for my daughter when one day she will be confronted with these charismatic teachings. Let's not forget, Benny Hinn, with his alleged 'gift of healing' television program, is not healing people, if you check with them once they are backstage. Or in subsequent days when the adrenalin and unfulfilled hope have subsided. Much of it is simply staged. Some of it is faked by people truly desperate for healing. Nothing in the way of a miracle goes on there. Is it, in effect, "Simon the magician" of Acts, leading people to Christ? Who knows? One more thing needs to be pointed out. There are no, "speaking in gift of tongues", t.v. shows. Because the content of those shows would be able to be verified.

*"Charismatic praying in tongues" comes from men themselves.

This is how Paul describes it. "For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God".

"For if I 'pray in a tongue' my spirit prays".

'praying' in "unknowable tongues", are actually giving voice to spirits other than God. And falsely presenting them to themselves and others as God Himself. 1 Cor. states that God is the originator of His tongues and speaks through men in known languages that have meaning. Any other is not from God and is inappropriate to speak according to scripture. Those are surely "profane and vain babblings" in their content.

Is "praying in tongues" actually Romans 8 being played out before our eyes? Is it the Spirit of God actually searching the heart of the speaker and then using the speaker himself to speak for It, back to God, 'groanings that are too deep for words? Then why doesn't He tell us that? Why instead does He 'put into words' something He tells us is "too deep for words"? But most importantly, why does He put in front of us unidentifiable and only self-edifying babblings, of which we can have no idea whether or not are coming from a mere 'common spirit' - good spirit or bad spirit - to marvel at as though from Him? Possibly a demon bringing God's glory from us to himself. Why would God take the otherwise beautiful and comforting picture He gives us in Romans 8:26-27 of the Spirit explaining our hearts to God, and make a display which we cannot tell from that of a wicked demon? That would be a contradiction from God. But God does not allow contradiction. These displays are not of God. They would even be a betrayal by God. Fooling us into marveling at a demon. Praising, even worshipping a demon. Not knowing! This sort of display is not of God.

The following verse is found worded in many different ways within many different translations. But isn't the spirit of this verse, which resounds the same through all of the translations but is found below in the New King James version, an important and useful foundational perspective when trying to decipher the truth within the teachings of men, otherwise, seemingly godly teachers, such as we find in the Charismatic church?


1 Tim. 6:20 "...avoiding the profane and idle babblings and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge--.

I've finally learned, through my discussion in the comments section of this post 'what' is 'what'. Now I just need to get it said right in a final post.

30 comments:

Paul G said...

Todd; I know that we will not immediately come to an agreement on 'tongues'.
But I know you have the maturity to seriously look into it and not just sweep those Biblical passages under the carpet or write them off as many do.

To truly understand 'tongues' we have to look to the Scripture and not to men's understanding, their feelings, assumptions or pet-doctrines.
I think that I rightly assume we both accept the Scripture (Bible) to be authority over us and suitable for correction in doctrine and in conduct and hopefully that the Lord Jesus may grant us to totally yield to His Word the Bible without restraint.

I am confident when we ask the Lord Jesus for a loaf of bread, He will not give us a stone. Likewise when we ask Him for the overflowing of His Spirit, He will not give us a demon spirit and if we ask for the gift of tongues, we will not get demon tongues.

1 Cor. 12, 13, +14. All those chapters are dealing with spiritual gifts (12:1), like 'word of wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, healing, miraculous powers, prophecy, distinguish between spirits, speaking in different kind of tongues, the interpretation of tongues'.

All those gifts had been given by the Holy Spirit just as He determines (12:11), for encouragement and the building up of His Church (the believers) through all generations to this day.
All those gifts do not come from any devil or evil spirits.
These chapters are written for our instruction on how to use those gifts in a public assembly in an orderly manner of worship (1 Cor. 14:26- 33).
This is not Paul's word, but the Lord's command for you and me, for the Mennonite Church and every other Church who claims to believe in the Lord Jesus and His Word (1 Cor. 14:36-38).
The Lord Jesus desires that we all would eagerly seek spiritual gifts (1 Cor. 14:1) including tongues and not reject any of them, or intellectually explain them away.

There are different kinds of gifts (1Cor. 12:4), just as there are different kinds of tongues (1 Cor. 12:10).
(Acts 2:8) Is one kind of tongue where they heard them speaking in their own native language?

(1 Cor.14:2) This kind of tongue NO--ONE understands! No nationality or human or spirit, but only God, with his spirit he speaks mysteries to God.
That may sound like a babble or gibberish to you and me that is because we cannot understand it, unless we ask the Lord Jesus who understands all languages and tongues to give us the interpretation. If the Lord gives us the interpretation, then we have received the gift of interpretation of tongues just as it says in (1 Cor.12:10).
It is just like a mystery that is unknown till the Lord Jesus makes it known to us.
Remember that tongues is the gift of God only to believers and NOT to unbelievers, the unbelievers get nothing from the Lord.

Todd; I know that you know all those things and therefore we both should agree on this.
(1 Cor. 14:2) This 'none' understandable tongue which only God understands should NOT be spoken in a public assembly of believers unless there is an interpreter of tongues among them (1 Cor. 14:27+28), if the tongue speaker has spoken and he realizes that there is no interpreter, then he has to ask the Lord to give him the interpretation and then to speak out loud so that the whole assembly might be edified (1 Cor. 14:13 + 26-28).
Enough said for now!
Love; Paul.

Paul G said...

Oh, I nearly forget.
There are no 'NEW----TONGUES' anywhere in the Bible or in (Mark 16), but rather unknown tongues, which no one understands except the Lord Jesus and to whomever He gives the interpretation.

Also tongues are definitely not for teaching as you said in your last post.
(Acts 2) they were not teaching anybody, but declaring the wonders of God, they even thought that they were drunk.
(Acts 10:46) the Gentiles were saved and they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Definitely they were not teaching anybody.
(Mark 16:17+18) they cast out demons, speaking in tongues, picking up deadly snakes, drinking deadly poison and healing the sick, all those signs are definitely not teaching.

Yes there is also the gift of teaching (1 Cor. 12:28), but tongues and prophecies are most certainly not for teaching, but they are for proclamation, edification and encouragement.

Todd; I don't think that you or I would like to be taught by someone prophesying in church or teaching us in known or unknown tongues.
(1 Cor. 14:2-9) (v 2) "For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to man but to God." Surely he does not teach God in tongues, does he? But rather he speaks mysteries to God with his spirit and no nationality can understand that.

Well Todd; it is easier not to believe, but Paul encourages us to earnestly seek the gifts, not only tongues and interpretation but also prophecy, word of knowledge, healing etc. (1 Cor. 14:1)
All spiritual gifts from the Lord Jesus are good gifts and should not be rejected or intellectually explained away; they are clearly written for our instruction and should be received by faith so that signs and wonders would follow the preaching of the gospel.
Many churches today have only teaching and nothing else and even their teachings are questionable.

Paul,

Todd said...

Paul,

I'm not so sure that the Lord would give us the gift of tongues without there being a reason. After all, they are for an expressed purpose. Does that purpose exist today? Are there foreigners in your church who can't understand the sermon? Are there unbelievers there whom they are intended for? They are not intended for believers but rather to be performed by believers for the profit of 'unbelievers'. And even then, are we sure it was not just for the apostles and those close to them. You've made something completely different out of them. Something that brings no use or profit.

One thing that seems to be clear here and that is that you are thoroughly decieved by your own mind and body, and perhaps, as you would have it, "unknowable" spirits, and get encouragement to that end by your church and it's leaders. You all come together and confirm in one another the natural gift you have to produce the ramblings that have bear bo resemblance to anything explained in scripture. At least as you've presented them here, or in last months discussion in the previous post, and your church may well be a spiritual playground where you all have re-manufactured your own false teachings. That suspicion is well founded in scripture. You continue to look for signs and should not expect anything meaningful to be forthcoming until you get right with His word itself. We are told not to look for signs but are filled with all spiritual wisdom and knowledge through His word. Not only in word but in power, bearing fruit of the Spirit which we could otherwise not bear ourselves. That power grants us riches of patience, self-control, obedience, unexplainable love for all men, hope, unexplainable peace in every difficult circumstance, that we could never otherwise hope to have. There is no comfort nor value in "unknowable" ramblings, for 'believers' or 'unbelievers'.

You bring up a chapter and a verse and then never do let it speak for itself. You use your own words instead of letting Him speak. Yours don't harmonize with His Words. They often misrepresent or contradict His words. You fail to have scripture state these teachings itself. One must let scripture do the talking.

Here's a good example of you repeating again something that contradicts scripture:

Paul G. - "tongues and prophecies are most certainly not for teaching,"

You're not in this conversation in a genuine way Paul. You are simply repeating your false teachings after being corrected by scripture. And you have to, otherwise, this 'tongues' teaching of yours does not work out. And so you always will I suspect.

Here's how scripture says 'tongues' will profit us by way of teaching.

1Co 14:6 "But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, what will I profit you unless I speak to you either by way of revelation or of knowledge or of prophecy or of teaching?

They are a 'sign' that even the believer can marvel at, as he uses them to "reveal" and "teach" the "knowledge" of God.
And Paul specifically tells us that they are meant 'for' the 'unbeliever'. They are intended to profit the 'unbeliever' Your teachers have convinced you otherwise Paul G. That's the sign of a false teacher.

This is a confusing statement here:

Paul G. - "Todd; I don't think that you or I would like to be taught by someone prophesying in church or teaching us in known or unknown tongues.
(1 Cor. 14:2-9) (v 2) "For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to man but to God." Surely he does not teach God in tongues, does he? But rather he speaks mysteries to God with his spirit and no nationality can understand that.


You keep going back and forth between the 'tongues' in Acts and this other kind of 'praying in tongues'. That gives support to the arguement that there is only one 'tongues' in the bible. The other is something not allowed to be spoken. A kind of tongue that at first appears to be a 'tongue' but isn't the same as a 'gift of tongues'. Even a false tongue. Sorry to have to be the one telling you this Paul G. But the apostle Paul has already told us.

The apostle Paul is saying that these 'praying in tongues' should not even be spoken unless they are 'clear' and deliver revelation or prophecy or knowledge or teaching.

It's simple. The one kind of tongues from Acts 2 is permitted, and the 'praying in tongues' is not. Paul says "no one understands". There is no mention of men being able to interpret these tongues or even of their should being able to interpret them. According to you, on the one hand, the 'praying in tongues' is "unknowable", and then on the other, Christ knows the language and places it into the interpreters mouth for the interpreter to tell the congregation the 'mysteries to God' which the speaker's spirit is speaking. There is no mention of this process. Or even a process. All we know is that his is that other kind of tongue that we don't even know for sure the people in Corinth knew they were doing. Paul said don't do it. There were no interpreters that we can see who were interpreting 'men's spirits speaking mysteries to God'. Just like there are none we can see today. But you would have me believe that there are only by virtue that you do it. Yet no one but you and a few others ever sees this going on. Even you have refused to explain to me some of your experiences. Maybe you don't know what you are seeing. Maybe you are misinterpreting. God tells us to test the spirits. We do that by scripture. We must know from scripture if it is of God. We cannot know from men only. Without scriptural backing we are left to our imaginations and our natural impulses.

And here you say:

Paul G.-"Oh, I nearly forget.
There are no 'NEW----TONGUES' anywhere in the Bible"

The Lord say "new tongues"right here:

Mr 16:17 - "These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;"

Obviously, Paul, you're praying to the Lord for knowledge, and He's answered that prayer by promising to you understanding through His word. Just like the rest of us. He's taught why we don't have to look for signs. Isn't that yet another contradiction your teaching brings in - that we are still to go about looking for more and more signs.

And you are far less likely to listen to me than you are to Him.

You've not listened to Him.

On another note, I see now that you give room for people in your church to take an "unknowable" language(one that does not exist on earth) and put forth an interpretation to it, as though it is from the Lord. Yet scripture says ",there are a great many kinds of languages in the world, and no kind is without meaning". But you invented your "unknowable" languages that no one knows the meaning of except Christ? I suppose that's where you retreat from 'speaking in tongues' back to 'praying in tongues'. Paul says these tongues are in known languages able to be interpreted for the edification of all. If it's not in a known but an unknown language, then your teaching has someone interpreting an "unknown" language, which Paul says doesn't exist. But you say Christ gives them the meaning of the language that only He knows, so you now have people interpreting "unknown" languages. Paul never mentions "unknown" languages that can be interpreted only by Christ, or why we would be spoken to in church that way, and why, if it is for the edification of the speaker only, is it spoken to the congregation? Would God have us doing this contradictory thing as well? Do you see how we can eventually get to the bottom of these things Paul? Do you see the problems with what you have created?

You are standing behind the facade of the 'gift of speaking in tongues', doing something, instead, about which you have no idea. It's coming from your mouth, you do not know what it is, and you attribute it to God? When you are advised by Him not to. It could very well be coming from your own flesh. You can't be sure. Any of the interpreters I have ever seen have been wrong or contrived. How can you as the speaker know? When you don't know, then do you pray each time to know yourself what the interpretation is? What is that like? What sorts of messages do you get? Are they messages at all? Or do you even know?

Just the fact that someone in your assembly is interpreting an "unknowable language" is a contradiction. Christ has never told us of such an interpretive process. A man who is the equivalent of Simon the magician of Acts invented these teachings Paul G. Who wanted to freely wield the power of the Spirit without being accountable to others or to scripture. I'm sure there are many who are fascinated with that kind of power or even want it for themselves. Scripture tells us there are people like that out there. They are only believed by people on false pretenses. They have been decieved. Under your system they can't be stopped. If you are speaking in an "unknowable" tongue, then who's to stop one of these people from giving a false interpretation to enact their own will on others? If you don't know the language then you would be helpless. You would have no way of knowing for sure. I can't even believe we're working out of the same Bible.

Do you remember the Owiji(?) board Paul? The game where two people would place their fingers on the moveable platform in the middle of the board, and the platform would then supposedly move according to the message the spirit of the board was trying to communicate? There is absolutly no difference between that and what you are now practicing with these "unknowable tongues" in your Charismatic church. There were the kids who believed and made it work for them on the Ouiji Board. Only now they're adults and we have assurances in the word about putting confidence in unknown and unidentifiable things and spirits. And the last thing in the world we would want to do is glory in them, whatever they are, and that is where you church puts us.

Paul, I see a problem here. When you discuss the Lord's Word, you are not letting the Lord speak, (When you use your words instead of His to quote Him). And it's very likely then that you are not letting the Lord speak to you through His word. You use other peoples words, and your own, to represent the Lord's words, that contradict the Lord's words. I've showed you where. You make statements that are false. That's how we determine false teaching. You've not used His words to form your teaching. And some words you use even contradict His. It can't get any plainer. Are you going to start addressing that problem? We're not playing Ouiji Board here. That is darkness and deception on the Ouiji Board, and in your 'tongues'. The Lord and who are His are full of Light.

By this statement of your here:

Likewise when we ask Him for the overflowing of His Spirit,

You ask for an overflowing Spirit in the form of unknowable ramblings. The Spirit is fruit and knowledge and understanding

We don't need to ask for an "overflowing" Spirit. We can see that the Spirit is in us through the following verse:

2Co 13:5 "examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--?"

The Word of Christ can "intellectually explain away" these false teachings, showing that they have not come from His mouth. Glory be to Him.

Your sign and wonders are not the signs and wonders of our scripture Paul G. The fact remains, you have no idea what they are.

The only evidence you have that you are speaking in 'tongues' is that, 'it comes out of your mouth'. You figure since it comes out of your mouth, and is strange, that it must be 'strange tongues' Does this indeed happen? Are these the inexpressible things which are "groanings too deep for words". Yet when they are put to words by an 'interpreter' we now understand them, and on top of that, they are rather mundane? It can't be.

Is this a sign or a wonder, or does this really happen at all? If this were really happening I don't see that it would be difficult to prove. I think it would be marvelous. But there's never anything to be seen in the way of the Spirit going on Paul G. And if that's the case then isn't someone being mislead here? I think that as long as I adhere to scripture then I have the benefit of knowing for sure. It's never let me down and promises never to do so. And it won't let me go with you into this area of darkness where men speak "unknowable tongues" and only have Simon the magician to rely upon. This changed kind of speaking in tongues is not of God. And why ever would I benefit from knowing the mysteries that your spirit wants to speak to God?

What's all this for? Believers don't want to see others 'mysteries to God', nor should they want to. People looking for a spectacle would. Unbelievers would not undersand this different process of yours. They would not see God in it. Moreoever, this process cannot possibly be proof of anything Divine. Men speaking of God in languages to unbelievers which the speakers had never before known, that would be a glorous miracle that both the speakers and the hearers would be beside themselves in, seeing and hearing the unmistakable working of God's Spirit. This is a "knowable" miracle that all would and did marvel at. Why would God then reproduce it again in a potentially vulgar way such as you propose. Your way would be mocked by unbelievers and would have nothing but the words of men behind it. No proof or sensibleness behind it which the original 'tongues' had. Nothing impressive, no miracle. Have you ever thought this through Paul G. outside of your own small faction of christians? Do you have the ability to think this through? Is this the best that the man who contrived these teachings could do to explain his own false display of God's Spirit, unto his own edification or gratification or profit? Gods truth must be given more weight than man's inconsistent imagination.

Earnestly seek the gifts? I say first seek the wisdom and knowledge of God. Simon the magician earnestly sought the gifts. There's more to it than just that Paul. We seek the edification of the church first.

I'll have to get back to this again.

Thanks for your exchange. Christ's love to you. Todd

Paul G said...

Yes Todd; I was wrong in saying that there are no 'new' tongues.
It would make sense, sins every language is understood by someone (1 Cor. 14:10) except the 'new' tongue in (1 Cor. 14:2) which no one understands.

I know I was racing a little bit, but I will make it briefer.
I am trying to find an area where we both can agree.

[1] According to (Mark 16:17) would you agree that tongues are SIGNS that accompany only believers?

[2] According to (1 Cor. 14:22) and tongues are a SIGN not for believers, but for unbelievers?
Note; Mark says 'accompany'and Cor. says 'for'.

[3] According to (1 Cor. 14:2) would you agree that those TONGUES no one understands, no human, angel, spirit, or nationality except the Lord God?

[4] Would it be acceptable to you if I call that tongue 'unknowable tongue' sins no one understands, or perhaps 'non understandable tongue' or a '(14:2)' tongue? Just so that we both know and understand that the '(14:2)' tongue is understood by no one.

[5] According to (1 Cor. 14:10) would you agree, that every LANGUAGE in the world is understood by someone?
Note; (14:2) says 'tongues' and (14:10) says 'language'; even though they are similar yet not exactly the same.
Paul,

Todd said...

Paul,
I think I've managed to get a little further along in my understanding. Bear with me brother. And I'll get to your questions at the very end.

Let me start with the first thing you said:

Paul G - "It would make sense, sins(since) every language is understood by someone (1 Cor. 14:10) except the 'new' tongue in (1 Cor. 14:2) which no one understands."

Yes, I think these are new tongues. Not in the sense that you mean as perhaps newly appearing since Acts 2. "New Tongues", in 1 Cor. 14:2, likely means 'tongues which are "new" to those speaking them'. Not that it is a 'new tongue on the face of the earth'.

I'm finally starting to see what the apostle Paul is saying.

Paul is not approaching this as though there needs to be a distinction made between two kinds of 'tongues'.

He is, though, both defining and instructing, as to what tongues are and how they operate. In the passages to the Corinthians Paul speaks of only one kind of 'tongues'. And then some other stuff some folks are doing that appears as though it is 'tongues' but he holds fast to his definition and makes them adhere to it or else he calls it somethiong else.

He helps by defining 'tongues' as "...'tongues' of men and of angels". Which means the languages(tongues) and speaking of men, as aided by the ministrations of angels who help fascilitate the men speak the new 'tongue' and without whom the languages would be strange to them.

There is only one kind of 'tongue' and these are the 'tongues' Paul means when he says:

For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.

Because...he then goes on to describe what how this, "speaking mysteries to God", is something different than the 'tongues of men and of angels'. No one understands 'mysteries to God', but, further down the paragraph, he says that, 'tongues', are able to be understood by someone, who will then interpret them, and the result will be a message that will edify the church:

...greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.

Do you follow me? 'Tongues' will be understandable by someone, able to be interpreted, and will carry an edifying message. They should not be 'mysteries to God'. According to Paul they should still be the tongues of Acts 2. The only 'tongues' of the bible.

The 'speaker of tongues' is supposed to be speaking from God to men, (v.8)'as a bugle that produces a distinct sound, preparing men for battle', with an edifying message from God. These tongues are not meant for the 'speaker' but for the congregation. The 'speakers' in Corinth, however, no one could understand. But they should have been able to. The speakers were edifying themselves. As it were, they were not speaking understandably to anyone but to "himself and to God". These 'tongues' were coming from the speaker and so they were not the Spirit's 'tongues'.

Are these two processes competing now? Is the Spirit competing with Himself now, on the one hand, breaking His own rules by speaking in a language only He knows and not a 'language of this world'? Speaking the innermost thoughts of the speaker himself, to God, which would have no upbuilding value for the church but edification for the speaker only?

Are you telling me that the Spirit is going to come in and interfere with Paul's stated process through the apostle Paul here in front of the congregation? Your invention of the Spirt 'uttering groanings from your spirit' would be a complete interference with what Paul has said is supposed going on. Do you think the Spirit is actually doing that and therefore responsible for all of this confusion? Two conflicting kinds of 'tongues' by the same Spirit on the floor of the church at the same time? I think that's the untenable conclusion your inventionof a second kind of 'tongues' leaves you with.

Paul, then soon after, is speaking of these 'nonunderstandable tongues' as coming from man's spirit. 'Praying' in tongues, 'singing' in tongues, 'blessing' in tongues , 'the giving of thanks' in tongues.

"For you are giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not edified"

Or, the 'speaker' was speaking the 'tongues' of his own spirit that do not edify. Ten thousand of the words in his 'tongue' are not worth 5 words of instruction from the Lord says Paul. It's not the "gift of tongues" at all because it's not as defined by Paul just a might earlier. No one underrstands them and they have virtually no edification value.

When Paul asks the speakers with no interpreter to be quiet, he's not proposing to silence the Spirit of God. He's not trying to manage the Spirit of God here, so that God does not start clanging like a cymbal during our worship services. He's trying to silence something that is not the Spirit of God coming through men.

Rather, they are praising God from their own spirit, for no one's edification but their own. Their own spirit is singing and blessing and giving thanks. They don't appear as though they are representing the Spirit of God but rather they appear mad, or barbaric. They put off others. They fail to convict. They cause others to stumble. Do you see how we can know all of this from these scriptures?

This is the crux of how we know what the 'tongues' of the bible are. They are well defined and all 'tongues' are measured against their definition.

Paul is not trying to clear up any confusion here. He's not distinguishing between differnt 'kinds' of 'tongues' but rather, dealing with one definition and measuring every tongue by it. Otherwise, if no one understands, then it's 'mysteries' spoken to himself and to God. Not what they are supposed to be, which is known, and clear language, meant to be recieved by the congregation and to edify.

Possibly now to repeat myself somemore, let's ask, "In what way does, "No one understand them"?(as you stated about these "new tongues".
Let's look at what we can know about them according to what the apostle Paul says.

We know that:
1. They are able to be interpreted. Paul, in verse 5, says "unless he interprets". That means they 'would' be able to be interpreted. From that verse we can also conclude that they 'must' be interpreted, because they are given "So that the church may recieve edifying'. Paul says then that they are 'knowable', and as such, should be a 'known message recieved' for the 'edification' of the congregation. Paul explains everything. Paul does not acknowledge these 'mysteries to God' as anything other than tongues which should be clear, in a language of the world, understandable and interpretable, and interpreted, and contain a recievable message, from God, edifying to the congregation.

2. These tongues are a message to be recieved by the church.
"Unless he interprets, so that the church may recieve edifying.
Paul then goes on to say 'tongues' are for revelation, knowledge, prophecy and teaching. Clear speech in a 'known' and 'interpretable' language.

So by all of this we may know that there were not competing tongues at Corinth. Paul held to one kind of 'tongue' never attempting to clear up competing kinds of 'tongues'.

There are not incidents of the Spirit speaking someones heart to God through an interpreter. Regardless of what appears to be going on in your church Paul G. It would be interpreted from a language known of the world; and it would carry a message to be recieved by and edify the congregation. This does not fit with your "unknowable" language that only Christ knows. And listening to the Spirit interpret the inexpressible 'utterances' of 'your' spirit would not be edifying.

1.) So we know Paul was allowing for only one kind of 'tongues'.

2.)We can know that 'mysteries to God' are not of that 'tongue' which Paul gave authority to as the gift coming from God.

3.) We can know that 'mysteries to God appear to be 'tongues' but come from the spirits of men.

And I'll develop this a little more when I get a chance.

So what about your questions here:

[1] According to (Mark 16:17) would you agree that tongues are SIGNS that accompany only believers?

Well that's what it plainly says. I don't remember there being any question about that.

[2] According to (1 Cor. 14:22) and tongues are a SIGN not for believers, but for unbelievers?
Note; Mark says 'accompany'and Cor. says 'for'.


That's correct.

[3] According to (1 Cor. 14:2) would you agree that those TONGUES no one understands, no human, angel, spirit, or nationality except the Lord God?

It doesn't say that. It says "no one understands". We can't rule out that the Lord doesn't understnad either. It is a mystery directed to Him. whether it is random drivel coming from the speakers fleshly spirit we can't know. What we can be sure of, Paul shortly after tells us; they should be able to be understood by someone, interpreted, and they should produce an edifying message to be recieved by the congregation.

These tongues are the equivalent of someone 'blessing'or singing' or 'praying' or 'giving thanks' from their own spirit, as mention in 1 Cor. 14:15-17. He speaks 'mysteries'; we don't know who can understand them or what they contain. Like I said in an earlier post, "What exactly is speaking mysteries to God". It's really not covered any where in the bible. It's totally speculative to conclude it is anything other than things no one understands. Perhaps it is something childish, with no meaning, as 1 Cor. 14:20 seems to
open the door to.

[4] Would it be acceptable to you if I call that tongue 'unknowable tongue' sins no one understands, or perhaps 'non understandable tongue' or a '(14:2)' tongue? Just so that we both know and understand that the '(14:2)' tongue is understood by no one.

As mentioned to your preceeding question, I don't think we can assume that it is anything other than a man speaking mysteries when he is supposed to be speaking to men. He's speaking to God but he doesn't know what. This is no longer 'tongues' as Paul defined them, to men in the congregation, but something that appears as 'tongues' but is coming from the spirit of the speaker himself, and going up to God. Paul say "If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful". It's the speakers spirit and emotions praying, isn't it, without really thinking anything? This is what it says Paul G., my patient brother in Christ.

[5] According to (1 Cor. 14:10) would you agree, that every LANGUAGE in the world is understood by someone?
Note; (14:2) says 'tongues' and (14:10) says 'language'; even though they are similar yet not exactly the same.


Yes.

I'll be back. And I'll even touch on a few points that I was wrong on.

My goal here is to fit all of this into a few tidy paragraphs.

Thank you for making me think Paul G. Brotherly love to you. Todd

Paul G said...

Todd:
It is great that we have come to a common agreement on [1] + [2] + [5].
But point [3] the 14:2 tongues is a very important point for you to agree with me, because a sound understanding on tongues also depends on that point.

It is reasonable to say that NO human, angel, demon, spirit or nationality can understand the 14:2 tongues, because it says "NO ONE" and that really means absolutely NO ONE understands, except the Lord God the Almighty Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
This is because He is the giver of the 14:2 tongues (1 Cor. 12:8).
The same is with mysteries… they are only mysteries because we don't understand them.
But the Lord understands all mysteries and every tongue including the 14:2. He even knows the innermost thought of our hearts. Don't you think this makes sense?
Paul

Todd said...
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Todd said...

Paul,

Finally, praise the Lord, I think I can explain.

And then I'll answer the question in your comment.

In chapter 13, Paul tells us whose languages 'tongues' are. They are "the tongues of men and angels". The tongues of men, given to them by the ministering angels.

Then...Paul defines 'tongues'. After telling us how they are being done - in a non-edifying manner - he tells us how they are supposed to be done.

He teaches them 'what' they 'are' and 'how' they are done.

The 'what', is 'God speaking to people'; and the 'how' is 'through men'. He quotes the Lord speaking. "By men of strange tongues and by the lips of strangers I will speak to this people,..."

And He gives the 'why', in chapter 14. Revelation, prophecy, knowledge, teaching, for the edifiying of the church.

So, 'there' is the gift of tongues explained by Paul. One 'tongues', one Spirit, one purpose. A sign from God revealing Him and His work.

Isn't that fascinating?

Now, you Paul G.(may your heart be blessed,)stop at the one verse(1 Cor. 14:2), and use it to describe and define 'tongues' as what they are 'meant' to be. Paul though explains to us what they are 'meant' to be as opposed to that verse 14:2. 'Tongues' are not, 'speaking to God', but, 'God speaking to men'. He then explains to them 'how to', 'what they are', and 'what they are for'. He instructs us that 'tongues' are not 'unknown', and are not spoken to God but to men. Paul opened the door to men blessing and thanking God in 'tongues' as well 'if' they are spoken clearly and understandably in a known language from which people may recieve a message.

Let me look at your comments now:

It is reasonable to say that NO human, angel, demon, spirit or nationality can understand the 14:2 tongues, because it says "NO ONE" and that really means absolutely NO ONE understands, except the Lord God the Almighty Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

Yes, and that He recongizes them as uncontrolled incoherent ramblings. In fact, it can't even be said the Lord understands them. It simply doesn't say they are anything other than 'not able to be understood'. God certainly understands what is going on, but what is going on may truly be uncontrolled emotional bodily nonsense. You can't make reckless assumptions here and put words in scriptures mouth.

You ask..."Don't you think this makes sense?"

Paul doesn't even say these are mysteries 'directed' at God, but rather things that simply 'no one understands', which are supposed to be directed to men. Therefore they are not necessarily talking to anyone. They surely do not know nor can they. But surely God is watching, and if no one else can understand, then surely they are at least touching His ears because He misses nothing. 'Tongues' though, I should not have to remind you, is God speaking to men.

Possibly, you are venting your heart when you speak these things to God in church. I can see how you may have vulnerably fallen prey to certain men misleading away from looking closely at all of the information in this passage.

See if this makes any sense Paul. Todd

Todd said...

Paul,

Regarding your belief that 'tongues' is not for teaching.

Do you see where Paul says "I speak in tongues more than you all; however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue."

When we read this verse, isn't it true that we have a tendency to be swept away with the bold comparison Paul makes between the ten thousand words in a tongue comapared with 5 words with his mind? Do you realize that he is referring to his "teaching"(ae. instruct) while he speaks in 'tongues'?

Do you see how you have been mislead to believe that nowhere in the Bible does it talk about 'tongues' used for teaching?

Todd

Todd said...
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Todd said...

He refers to, 'one who speaks in a tongue', in the beginning of chapter 14, and who happens to be 'speaking things no one understands', as ,i."speaking in tongues",. We know these people are indeed considered by Paul to be "speaking in tongues". He says as much. He describes to these people what they are doing, and then, through the rest of chapter 14, describes what 'speaking in tongues' really is and how it should be done.

He describes what they are doing - "For one who speaks in a tongue..., labeling it as "speaking in tongues", and then, throught the rest of the chapter, constructs it as the same as the "speaking in tongues" of Acts 2. He does not open the door for another 'tongues' but rather reins in anything that may appear as though it is another kind of 'tongue'.

Paul begins chapter 14 by describing something which is hard for us to understand, which he calls "speaking in tongues". And then he clears it up by telling us how it is supposed to be.

o.k., I'm getting closer.

Todd said...

Since we can determine what 'tongues' are from Paul's explanation of 'tongues' in the rest of chapter 14, when Paul says, "For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries., he's describing something that is being done wrong, and so...we don't really have to know what it is. Afterall, it's wrong, and it may be nothing at all.

Paul G said...

Yes Todd; you surely have a gift to avoid a simple and plain question on 1 Cor. 14:2.

The 14:2 tongue is not as you say, that God is speaking to men.
But simply that the person (the tongue speaker) is speaking mysteries to God (men speaking to God).

There is a big difference between 'God recognizes' or 'God understands'.
Or 'God certainly understands what is going on'.
All of that does not confirm the superiority of the Lord.

[3] 1 Cor. 14:2 simply requires from you to acknowledge and agree that the Lord God understands all tongues, including the 14:2.
And that NO human, demon, spirit or whatever understands the 14:2 tongue, NO ONE absolutely no one!

Meanwhile I wish you and your family a merry Christmas and the favor of our wonderful Lord and God Jesus Christ.

Love Paul,

Todd said...

Paul,

I was wrong when I said the following showed Paul teaching in tongues:

Do you see where Paul says "I speak in tongues more than you all; however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue."

Sorry. Nevertheless, in 14:6, Paul says tongues are for teaching.

Here's the crux of chapter 14Paul. 1 cor. 14:2 is what your misinterpretation is centered around. therre really is nothing else thhat gives life to your flawed "tongues" teachings.

I've finally been able to simplify it.

In chapter 14, the apostle Paul describes what tongues are:

He says 'tongues' are a 'message' to be 'recieved' by the church. They are to profit the church in prophesy, revelation, knowledge and teaching. They will be in a 'known' language, spoken clearly, with meaning, and spoken to unbelievers. He shows the Lord saying that 'He(the Lord) is speaking', 'through men', 'to other men'.

Then Paul G., the apostle Paul says the exact opposite. He says, "For one who speaks in tongues does not speak to men but to God...".

Whaaa...? Has he just flatly contradicted himself? Has he just lost all credibility? Does scripture nullify itself? Or has he actually been needlessly misinterpreted by a few, and not contradicted himself at all?

There is something plain going on here. When he says "for one who speaks in tongues does not speak to men but to God...", he's talking about what's going on in Corinth. He then goes on and teaches the opposite of what they are doing. Correcting any seeming contradiction.

Scripture itself claims to have no contradictions but rather points to what some men falsely call knowledge. Scripture should deserve much more than being complacent with contradictions.

You took this one verse, and, instead of listening to what was around it, you listened to the words of mere men, who are willing to isolate the verse and remove it from the precious lesson Paul subsequently gives. His larger lesson in the other 38 verses of the chapter. How could people like you miss thhat?

They would have the apostle Paul declaring what tongues are, "...tongues does not speak to men but to God;", and then explaining the exact opposite of what he's just declared them to be, throughout the rest off the chapter, even citing the Lord saying they are 'the Lord speaking to men'. And then not letting scripture interpret scripture.

Thanks for your kind words Paul. I've got to go bake cookies right now. I've got more to say. I'm going to run this chapter past my 9 1/2 year old daughter too. I can't fool her. She'll surely be able to add insight here.

I wish you all of God's peace and my brotherly love. Todd

Todd said...

And finally, let's look at your last comment:

Yes Todd; you surely have a gift to avoid a simple and plain question on 1 Cor. 14:2.

The 14:2 tongue is not as you say, that God is speaking to men.
But simply that the person (the tongue speaker) is speaking mysteries to God (men speaking to God).

There is a big difference between 'God recognizes' or 'God understands'.
Or 'God certainly understands what is going on'.
All of that does not confirm the superiority of the Lord.

[3] 1 Cor. 14:2 simply requires from you to acknowledge and agree that the Lord God understands all tongues, including the 14:2.
And that NO human, demon, spirit or whatever understands the 14:2 tongue, NO ONE absolutely no one!


The willful misinterpretation of this one verse, Paul G., 1 Cor. 14:2, is what the whole Charismatic doctrine is dependent on.

You certainly are literally interpreting what Paul is saying. That is good. Luckly, we are not asked to view v. 14:2 as standing alone, and therfore, as being a contradiction to the Lord's own words in v14:21. Verse 14:2 tells us what the people of Corinth are doing. Paul then points to the words of the Lord to frame for them what they should be doing. Tongues are not actually men talking to God but God, through men, talking to men. He is not contradicting the Lord, and the Lord is not contradicting him. He's presenting problem/solution. He's telling what some in Corinth are doing versus what the Lord's 'tongues' would be doing. Simple.

It's abominable what men have done with this verse even with the rest of scripture denying it to them. They singularly cite one verse, v 14:2, and then steer people away from it's explanation by Paul. These teachers exploit this verse to open the door for them to appear as though they can speak for God. And they have left you with going away and telling people to meditate on scripture, as though there is some kind of secret involved, as opposed to meditating on scripture and letting it speak clearly.

And we can rule out 1 Cor. 14:2 as being a 'second' kind of 'tongues'. Because Paul uses the Lord's words himself in verse 21 to tell us what kind of 'tongue' it is. Or is supposed to be. The Lord Himself speaking by men to other men. The apostle Paul characterizes through all of chapter 14 how those of verse 14:2 at Corinth are speaking from their own spirits.

So I'll wrap all of this up with a clear summary in a while. In the meantime, feel free to tell me where you think I have erred.

Bhedr said...

Merry Christmas

Paul G said...

Well Todd; I hope your cookies haven't turned out like your doctrine and understanding on tongues?

To understand anything of the Scripture, whether tongues or any of the other gifts, we first must have a good foundation to build upon.
That foundation is already laid; it is the Scripture.
The Bible is not written for the intellectual scholar, but for simple believers in Jesus Christ just like you and me.
Neither is the Scripture written for private interpretation so that we can have our own wild speculations and presumptions.

Let your yes be yes and your no be no, anything else is of the evil one (that means of the devil).

Todd; I fully understand why you don't want to agree with 1 Cor. 14:2 "no one understands".
Perhaps you should ask an unbeliever from the street or an unbelieving school teacher what 1 Cor. 14:2 means, this is not rocket science.

If you nullify the 14;2 tongue or try to explain it away, then there is no benefit for you, because you can not edify yourself (1 Cor.14:4).
If you nullify the GIFT from the Lord which is the interpretation of the 14:2 tongues (12:10) and (14:13) then there is no edification for your Church in that respect.

I have been around a long time to know that when a person or a Church rejects one of the gifts, they generally reject all other gifts and put it into a different dispensation.

Can you see Todd, that the devil try's to rob and steal from you the good gifts which come from the Lord and that is not only the tongues which no one understands (except the Lord), but also interpretation, prophecy, healing, a word of knowledge, faith etc.

The believers do not have mere theories, but the power and demonstration of the spirit and to them signs and wonders follow.

All those who believe not; to them no signs will follow.
All they claim to have is teaching; as I have said previously that even that teaching is questionable! Teaching is not a sign that they are believers, Jehovah Witnesses have teachings and they are not believers in the God which I proclaim Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

Jesus Himself did not teach without performing signs, wonders and miracles.

Todd; If those signs and wonders are missing in your life and in the life of your Church even the 14:2 tongue, then you should eagerly seek the gifts just as it says in 1 Cor. 14:1.
It's that simple!
It is possible that you might stubbornly refuse to believe, but perhaps your daughter might believe one day?
Love Paul,

Todd said...
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Todd said...

Paul,

Well, in order to make your beliefs work you have to relegate teaching from scripture to the "unknown" mutterings from your flesh, which are no different than the 'tongues' of many false religions.

And again, your whole pentecostal 'tongues' belief system depends on taking out of context one verse. 1 Cor. 4:2. That's it. If anyone understands that verse correctly, as it is explained by the rest of the chapter, then your 'tongues' are men doing the 'tongues' of the many carnal religions from whence the people of Corinth had come out of.

Science is unable to see any difference between your mutterings and the muterings of other similarly fleshly men from other worldly religions.

Surely if you show 'only' that verse to 'unbelievers', and 'people on the street', they would believe it. There are people who have cut their hand off so it does not offend them anymore as well, because that's what scripture appears to tell them to do. Or drink lemonade because that's what a 'man' tells them scripture says to do. But all they would have to do is read the rest of the chapter 14 to learn about God breathed 'tongues'. If you ask them to accept that there is a 'contradiction' in chapter 14 then you have rendered God's word with a contradiction in it, and thus, powerless to represent any sort of Truth. And then the next guy from some Eastern religion would come along and show them his 'tongues', and you would have homogenized scripture with the rest of the world's religions. Or, as coming from men. Anyone off the street could understand that God would not open the door for people like you to misrepresent Him in the same way as these other spirits from other world religions. Simple.

Jehovah's witness's, as you cited, do the same as you. They isolate a verse and then remove it from it's context to make it say what they want. It's not their teaching, it's their flawed teaching methodology.

But we as people are expected to be taught by God's word. To be teachable. From scripture, nothing else. Not Simon the magician. We don't sit around and argue with Simon the magician from Acts all day, as I am doing with you. God's word is available to all for proof and reproof. Not guys like you.

It turns out that someone with no knowledge of the bible, and, people like yourself with these documentably natural impulses, that do not differ from non-religious 'speaking in tongues', are the only ones who follow their senses and fall for this stuff. People like yourself look for loopholes in scripture. But scripture has it's loophole closing power.

Your unfortunate insults are the only thing that keeps people intimidated enough to leave you to practice the same things as many people from false religions also attibute to their gods.

You have forgotten, we're not supposed to look for signs. Signs and wonders and miracles were only to get people paying attention to the 'teaching'. Scriptural teaching. Not the "unknown" teachings of false teachers. Simon the magician could keep people entranced all day. Simon's magic and your "unknown" trances point people 'into the air', along with the rest of the world's 'tongues'. There are specific unmistakable things that accompany Divine tongues. They can't be taught away. God's glory is unmistakable or else it is not present.

The 'spiritual gifts' that you would desire push aside and demean teaching and knowledge. Paul said to desire to speak 5 words in teaching as ten thousand in a tongue.

In your case, the teaching of men overides Paul's teaching of chapter 14. Careless men who rely on confusion. You prefer that "no one understands", and enjoy the opportunity it provides you to wield spiritual power. The less 'teaching' you encourage, then the more people there will be who will follow your worldly trances, that, basically anyone foolish enough to try can conjure up. Does God represent Himself in such a way? That is a pitiful way that many false teachers/gods decieve people, and you claim that it is of God. Then He would be a God of contradictions and foolishness. A God of no credibility.

Let's understand that there are no contradictions in scripture, and that what you personally do by imitating spirits is nothing different than other men did to promote their false gods long before Christ revealed Himself to us. He presented a 'tongues' that leaves no one able to question it.

Todd said...

Thank you for the Merry Christmas Brian. I wish you the same!

Paul G said...

No Todd! I have not been taking anything out of context, but rather I tried to establish points of agreement in the context of 1 Cor. 12+13+14.
The context of those three chapters is that the Lord Jesus encourages and instructing us,(you and me) to believe and eagerly acquire all those spiritual gifts which He has given to His Church (the believers). And to function in them in an orderly fashion (manner) in the Church gatherings (Assemblies), especially the 14:2 tongues.
That is the context!
Tongues in particular can get a bit messy, if we do not operate in them in an orderly manner in public.
Because we can not understand them, they sound to all of us (including me) like gibberish or a lot of babble just like any known languages which we can not understand, they also sound to us like gibberish and babble, but not to them that speaks that particular language.
In either case, I like that gibberish and babble to be interpreted in the assembly, so that I also might be edified.

1 Cor. 14:5 Paul said that he would like you Todd Saunders to speak the 14:2 tongues but he prefers you to prophecy, because prophecy is better than tongues, not unless you interpret the 14:2 tongues, in order that I might also be edified.
All this is in context.

Look brother, I am not against you, I am for you!
Because you are my brother in Christ we should come to an agreement on a plain Scripture verse.
I am not isolating one verse as you have said but seeking agreement.
Among the many gifts of 1 Cor. we have isolated to debate the one gift which is the tongues that no one understands 14:2 and it's associated gift 'interpretation'.

All the gifts of 1 Cor. are extremely controversial among Christians especially tongues.

Todd; I appreciate that you have engaged in a debate on the subject of tongues. Like it is in every debate there is opposition, correction and reproof on the one hand and understanding, insight and revelation on the other hand which amounts to spiritual maturity and growth.
All this is the pruning and the working of the Lord Jesus for our good.

The media once asked Billy Graham the evangelist, whether he believes and was speaking in tongues?
His reply was, "I personally do not speak in tongues but I can see that it is in the Bible".
Enough for now,
Paul,

Todd said...

Paul,

Tongues cannot be both 'men speaking to God' and 'God speaking to men'. It's impossible. Chapter 14 does not contain a contradiction. That we can be sure of.

Paul opens 1 Cor. 14 by showing them what they are doing. It's something many of them had been doing in their false religions for centuries. And continue to do within the world's religion and even outside of religion. It's nothing that is of God. The Lord speaking to men is a miracle. Men speaking to the Lord is not.

We can continue to discuss this if you'd like. I'd like to make some observations about your second to last comment. Much peace to you. Todd

Paul G said...

Todd, we both know that the Bible has no contradictions, because it is the Word of God!

The 14:2 tongues are a gift from God to men and men are speaking to God. They are speaking to God the mysteries which no one understands (except God).
There is nothing said about God speaking to men.
Also; God speaking to men is not a miracle at all, since He has done that from the beginning.
Or do you think that the Lord God Almighty does not speak to me?

1 Cor. 14;
From verse 1-5 Encouragement, explanation and comparison of tongues and prophecy.
Verse 6-9 instruction and explanation.
Verse 10-21 explanation of tongues and encouragement to excel in gifts that build up the church, also praying in tongues and explanation.
Verse 22-25 the operation of tongues and the workings and effect among unbelievers present in the church.
Verse 26-36 is how an orderly worship should be in a church gathering.

Please Todd, take special note of 39+40
"Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way".

It does nowhere say anything about 'false religions or what they had been doing for centuries' etc. but on the contrary.

Regards
Paul

Todd said...

Paul,

The apostle Paul says, "Do not forbid speakng in tongues." From this we can conclude that there were those who wanted to forbid it. Why? Silence God? No. Because just like it says, the speakers were talking to God, not men. The Christians of Corinth knew that alot of what these speakers were speaking was not of God but of men. How? Many of them had been listening to non-religious speaking in tongues attributed to gods way before Christ came along. These were the same thing. How did they know? The same way we can know today: The people of the time who had heard other 'tongues' from other religions concluded the same thing that people who have studied it today have concluded. There is no distinction between what was practised by many at Corinth and the followers of other religions. See the Felicitas Goodman study. Paul G., Christian 'tongues' are simply languages that the speaker had not previously known how to speaker. To be marveled at by the speaker as well as someone newly introduced to the gospel. Therein is the "unmistakable" presence and workings of the Lord. Not in these "unkowable" tongues uttered as easily by other religions as well. Your teachers have robbed you of that beautiful knowledge.

The earliest recorded episode of the way you speak in tongues was 1100 years before Christ was born. They've found there is a method of muttering used by all tongues speakers, modern pentecostals and pagans alike, because of the simlarity of our natural minds. How can you worship this stuff? Isn't it enough that it does not match scripture?

One verse in scripture you rest your entire hope in, and it's actually Paul telling other Christians to give up this ancient carnal babbling from their own spirit's, to "unknown" gods, as men had already been doing for ages. And this can be easly concluded simply by reading Paul's subsequent explanation of the 'how', 'why', 'where' and the 'what' (real) tongues are. Two distinctly opposite things.

Some men want to forbid it and rightfully so. Paul in effect does forbid it by silencing it so that real tongues may be spoken if needed.

Are you aware that it is arguable that "the gift of tongues" may have been limited to the feast of pentecost? When masses of people, mostly Jews, visiting Jerusalem, once in the spring of the year, from their distant land to which they were dispersed long ago, were now being given the opportunity to hear the gospel in their native "tongue".

Let's look at your last coment.

How can you say this...

The 14:2 tongues are a gift from God to men and men are speaking to God. They are speaking to God the mysteries which no one understands (except God).

The Lord says tongues is Him speaking to people.

"By men of strange tongues...I will speak to this people,:?

And then you say...

There is nothing said about God speaking to men.

When Paul shows the Lord saying it plain as day?

And I must remind you it does not say mysteries to God. It simply says, "he speaks mysteries". After stating that "no one understands". For the sake of not getting bogged down, I've phrased it as "mysteries to God". But scripture does not expressly state that. But what we can conclude from that verse is that 'it is the man speaking by his own spirit'. Afterall, that is how one would talk to God, speaking mysteries or not, he would indeed be speaking, and doing so to God. However, we cannot conclude from this verse that God understands these mysteries to be anything other than the speakers intentionally produced gibberish.


And Paul here is not comparing tongues and prophecy because 'tongues' are also for the edification of the church, not the speaking mysteries into the air that only edifies oneself.


You say here:

Also; God speaking to men is not a miracle at all, since He has done that from the beginning.
Or do you think that the Lord God Almighty does not speak to me?


God spoke to men through angels to prophets to write the Bible. He did not speak directly to men. Not even to the kings of Israel. But to and through the prophets. But He speaks to you as well? He reminds me through His word that all of His Scripture is inspired by Him and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate and equipped for every good work.

He tells me that I'm adequately equipped with His Word. So you have God talking to you, but I myself am adequately equipped as well with His Word.

It almost defies belief that we have the spoken word of the Creator, in a book, for our comfort and understanding, but today, it truly would be a miracle if our God spoke to us audibly as you seem to be implying. Arguably one of the greatest. I hope you rightly understand what 'God talking to you' is like.

In chapter 14, the unordained 'tongues' are explained as coming from 'your' spirit; because they are to God and yourself. blessing, singing, praying, giving thanks in 'your spirit'. You don't know what they are unless some interpreter comes in and tells you. Therefore, when you claim God speaks to you, are you sure it's God speaking to you. I'd say prove to be a rather unreliable source of who is speaking to you.

Please don't forget that God richly dwells in us all(believers) and speaks to us through His Word.

To take your statement, that 'God speaking to men is not a miracle', a little further. Tongues is a miracle, and tongues, the Lord says, is Him speaking to men. Even all signs are miracles. The Tongues in Acts was viewed as a miracle. Given that, how can you say that 'God speaking to men is not a miracle'? God speaking to men would fit 'any' definition of a miracle. And when it happens to men, the chosen few prophets, they can't help but fall on their face and worship Him. That 'God speaking to men is not a miracle', just shows me to what depth of understanding you suffer from due to false teachings.

1 Cor. 14;
From verse 1-5 Encouragement, explanation and comparison of tongues and prophecy.


That's not true Paul G. We are not encouraged to edify ourselves but the opposite. Your 'tongues to God' are not being encouraged but discouraged there.

The explanation that comes in verses 6-39 reveals your 'tongues to God' as a 'problem' framed and then followed by an explanation as to why. An exhortation of tongues as the 'opposite' of how some are doing them. Men to god instead of god to men. And an almost complete demeaning of them by Paul as they are being done in Corinth. Yet, some of the 'gift of tongues' still appears to be being displayed for 'foriegn unbelievers', and so, Paul stops just short of forbidding these 'other tongues' which no one understands, which were brought to this cultural and economic center of Corinth by people from many distant lands which contained many ancient tongue speaking religions. A totally different 'tongues' had come onto the scene at the feast of pentecost which was unmistakably of the Lord. Even primarily for the visiting Jews as scripture had foretold. "I will speak to this people, and even so they will not listen to me". Other signs as well for them, being unmistakeable as coming from anywhere else but God. Safety from poison and snakes and miraculous healings which people could be sure of, and which would unmistakably declare themselves to be of God.

He was trying to quiet the tongues of other religions, and still permit the 'unbelieving hearers' present from other lands to be benefited by the disciples speaking in their 'strange tongue'.

And Paul here, is not comparing 'tongues' and 'prophecy'. Because 'tongues' are also for the edification of the church, not the speaking mysteries into the air that only edifies oneself.
He's not contrasting 'tongues' and 'prophecy', but rather, contrasting the effects of the two as they are then being practiced. He says those 'tongues' don't edify the church, but 'tongues' should. Not as the 'men to God' tongues, but as the 'gift' that brings an edifying message from God to the church, rather than from men to themselves. this chapter makes that clear. And he also then goes on to explain that 'tongues' WILL be clear, and in 'known' languages, and meant for communicating a message to be recieved by the church, with meaning and edification, and are the opposite of mutterings to God. Those are fleshly utterances from men that, now since Christ, are caught in the same deception as those of the primitive false religions. No one understands, even from scripture, what they are. Except those who have witnessed the same sounds and fleshly characteristics of those who speak tongues of the false religions. They speak the same as those. Christ does not teach us that way. Our 'yes' can truly be 'yes'.

Verse 6-9 instruction and explanation.

If 'tongues' was supposed to be "men talking to God", as you suppose, then these verses would be so instructing you. Instead, they instruct you as 'tongues' being 'God speaking to men' through you(or a speaker). This, in fact, is Paul describing how the opening statemnt of 'men talking to God', is supposed to be done. Simple. He's is correcting the problem he has just described in 14:2. There is no ambiguity. Paul is saying that 'this' is what is supposed to be happening instead of 'men talking to God'. He does not allow for two different kinds of 'tongues'. He frames the only kind of 'tongues'. And explains how these are not to be mistaken for men blessing and praying and giving thanks in tongues from their own spirit. In fact he forbids them does he not? He silences them. Those 'tongues' which he describes as coming from men's own spirits.


Verse 10-21 explanation of tongues and encouragement to excel in gifts that build up the church, also praying in tongues and explanation.

Yes. This is true. We can be sure that 'men speaking to God edify themselves and not the church'. And that men performing 'tongues' from their own spirit are not 'tongues gifted from God'. No matter how they are done they do not abound to the edification of the church, and are to be silenced.

Verse 22-25 the operation of tongues and the workings and effect among unbelievers present in the church.

Your church speaks tongues and then waits for an interpretation. Sometimes the interpretation comes and sometimes it doesn't. Right? and if it doesn't then your speaker sites down and becomes silent. A tongues is a message for a specific unbeliever or group of unbelievers in your congregation who would understand it. Then, someone would interpret for the rest of the congregation so that they may also understand what is being spoken to the foriegners. In your church it's willy-nilly, people claiming to speak 'just to speak', and edify themselves, and to feel and appear spiritual. That's born out by the absence of foriegn unbelievers. The message simply glorifies the speaking itself, and mesmerizes the misinformed among you. You folks actually appraise one another on the presence of tongues in each other. You've revealed 'that' in some of your previous comments, telling of how, 'if you don't believe', then you won't be given the gifts. Your congregation is a pit of envy and competition and strife and deception because of this fleshly coveting and esteeming of the gifts.

The 'gift' would come for the benefit of the specific foriegn unbeliever in your church Paul. You folks are muttering and carrying on from your flesh when there is earnest work to be done by 'tongues' of teaching foriegn unbelievers. Tongues is a sign to them showing them that they can believe that which they are being told.

Verse 26-36 is how an orderly worship should be in a church gathering.

In the typical church setting, 'your tongues' would bring confusion. They only exist in certain pre-arranged, and highly controlled settings. The rest learn how to do it from a few. It's learned behavior.

Paul G., we can conclude from what Paul says, that there are folks who would forbid these tongues which, "no one understands", as coming from some outside or fleshly influence. Paul silences any 'tongue' which is not from God. He does not silence God here. Nor is God out of line here, causing all of these problems and stumbling, and such, causing Paul to rebuke Him.

The Lord, as Paul reminds us, says that tongues are from 'God to people'. They contain a message to be recieved. It will be clear and in a known language. It will contain revelation, prophecy, knowledge and teaching for unbelievers who need to be spoken to in a their own language which some around them may not understand.

Scripture does not contain a contradiction here. There is one kind of "gift of tongues". It has to be either 'God speaking to men' or 'men speaking to God'. The Lord says it is Him speaking to people. Speak mysteries to Him and to yourself, as you will, with your own spirit, as Paul describes you. But let God speak to you through His unerring word. And speak to others with His inerrant word of Truth. In your 'tongues' go on and speak to yourself, just as the apostle Paul tells you you are.

Regrettably, I'm out of time. Oh, I have so much more to say. I hope this makes sense to you. Todd

Paul G said...

Todd, I will give an answer to your comment next comment.

It seems to me that you find it difficult to accept that God is talking to me.

A short question;
Can you hear God speaking?

Todd said...

Hello Paul G.,

I'm sure that one whom God speaks to can hear Him speaking. But I've never heard Him speak audibly to me.

Are we supposed to believe that God is still writing the Bible and we will now have addendums to give to each other reading: "Then the Lord spoke to Paul G., saying..., and then the Lord spoke again to Paul G., saying..."(as it is written that He spoke to Moses and so on)?

The Bible tells us God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets. He raises up a holy prophet to which we are supposed to take heed of everything He says. The prophets spoke in the name of the Lord. The apostles also spoke the word of God to us. Perhaps He operates this way because He is an impartial God, not showing favor to a few. That way everyone has the benefit of His entire revelation.

I do know that in Heb. 1 it says, "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son,". And in Heb. 2:3 He says, "After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,". I believe this is the way God still speaks. I believe He directs us when we go to His Word for direction.

In the whole of the Bible we are privy to what He's been saying to all of His people from the beginning of creation. I honestly don't think He has anymore to say to us individually than He's already said. He wants what He has already said to take hold and work in our hearts. He's already blessed us with every spiritual blessing through the rich wisdom and knowledge of Him and His will through His Word and we are now fully equiped in every good thing.

For these reasons I'm very suspicious of people who claim He audibly talks to them.

I think the Mormons have done a fine job of building a false religion on the premise that God still talks to people.

I'm more inclined to think that He sticks to the time tested way He's always done it in the Bible.

Paul G said...

Thank you Todd, I am glad that you can accept that the Lord speaks to me.
If God does not speak to you audibly, how then can you hear Him?

To your comment on tongues;
Nothing you said is in the context of 1 Cor. 12, 13 + 14.
Remember the context is to encourage you to seek the gift of tongues and operate in them in an orderly fashion.

Todd, nothing is said about false tongues and that people could speak in tongues before they are saved (believe).
In fact it says absolutely nothing about what they were doing before salvation.
It does not speak about worldly religions, their gods and pagan practices.
It doesn't speak about any natural or carnal mind whatsoever.
It doesn't even say that there is a tongue which is not from God.
Paul does not tell other Christians to give up tongues.

Todd; the Bible (1 Cor. 12, 13+14) does NOT say that!
You have made that up all by yourself.

1 Cor. 14:2 does say that those mysteries are spoken to God and not to men, devils or demons.

Tongues are only for the edification of the Church, if they are interpreted. For that reason 1 Cor. 14 was written.
If the tongue speaker speaks only to God, then the Church is not edified but only the tongue speaker 1 Cor. 14:4.

Todd; I ought to know because I have received the gift of tongues from the Lord.

Every believer in Jesus Christ is born again, he is a brand new man, old things have passed away and all things are new. They do not walk in their former way of life because the Spirit of the living God is in them and neither would they practice any thing which is not from the Lord.
Lot's of love
Paul,

Todd said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Todd said...

I have been a couple of days on my back with the flu until last evening. I will probably rewrite this last comment again in the morning. It's a little hard to read.

Todd said...

Paul,

Thank you for being patient while I hopefully made this comment a little more understandable. As usual I've italicized your comments:

Thank you Todd, I am glad that you can accept that the Lord speaks to me.
If God does not speak to you audibly, how then can you hear Him?


One isn't supposed to expect to hear Him 'audibly'. God has the preacher preach it for Him now from His 'finished' Word. And ultimately, we are to go to the Word to hear from Him. God has arranged for faithful and able men to preach His enduring and living Word to us.

1 Pet.1:23 "for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For, "ALL FLESH IS LIKE GRASS, AND ALL ITS GLORY LIKE THE FLOWER OF GRASS. THE GRASS WITHERS, AND THE FLOWER FALLS OFF, 25 BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER." And this is the word which was preached to you.

Ro 10:8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

The apostles recieved a ministry directly from Jesus, and, Jesus His ministry from God.

That's the timeless unalterable Word of God Spoken to us by His ministers that we are supposed to hear and keep on hearing unto maturity. It's the simple inexhaustible Truth from God spoken by angels and prophets and it makes us whole.

Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable,

Where is there room for men running around saying He spoke this or that to me. They make a mockery of Him. Thes verses are God showing us how He speaks to us and what to listen to.

The Word of God is a fully self-contained seed to be sown; equiped to multiply until it has accomplished what God intends it to.

Lu 8:11 "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.

Mr 4:14 "The sower sows the word.

Ac 12:24 But the word of the Lord continued to grow and to be multiplied

Ac 6:7 The word of God kept on spreading;

The angels and prophets and apostles never indicated they had a lack of information. Just an unflappable zeal and responsibility to remember and to teach others what had already abundantly been spoken to them.

Ac 6:4 "But we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word."

Joh 15:20 "Remember the word that I said to you,

Ac 11:16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord,

Ac 8:4 Therefore, those who had been scattered went about preaching the word.

The apostles felt that they personally had been assigned to speak God's word to mankind.

Ac 8:25 So, when they had solemnly testified and spoken the word of the Lord,

Ac 13:46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first;

Ac 16:32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together

Php 1:14 and that most of the brethren, trusting in the Lord because of my imprisonment, have far more courage to speak the word of God without fear

Col 4:3 praying at the same time for us as well, that God will open up to us a door for the word, so that we may speak forth the mystery of Christ,

Heb 13:7 Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you

That's how God speaks to us.

And it answers every question that we need to know the answer to. It's where we go to find what God needs us to know.

Tit 1:9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

Ac 17:11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

1Pe
and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, 19. So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place,

Re 19:13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.


His complete revelation to us is contained in the Bible. No where else. Not voices.

I'm sorry that you have the misconception that I accept the Lord audibly speaks to you. The main reason I can't accept that is scriptural. And that should be sufficient. But I have to admit, there is more. It's the false prophecies we've all heard made by other seemingly reputable Christians in the media. The wolves in sheep's clothing. It's the false prophecies by Pat Robertson, that never come true.

Du. 18:21 "You may say in your heart, 'How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?' 22 " When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

Why doesn't God kill Pat Robertson? He's certainly made false prophecies in the name of the Lord that have not come true about hurricanes and governments falling and election outcomes. Why then doesn't God kill Him like He's said He would? Probably because we're under a new covenant of the Blood of Christ. Robertson will have to stand before God, 'in Christ', and be held accountable for all he has done. Did Robertson hear voices encouraging him to falsely declare these prophecies in Jesus name? Yes. He said "God told me...".

Why has God until now spoken, even to His chosen ones, mainly through angels or visions? Even through the angel of the Lord whom we assume is Christ Himself? Why has God changed from something that has worked so well until now to voices that can be counterfieted, or imagined, or abused? That holds Him up to scorn? And doubt? Well, until scripture indicates that He has indeed changed His methods, we cannot not start listening to voices as carnal men do.

There appear to be many misleading types of voices out there speaking to people.

But getting back to why I don't think God speaks audibly to you. You have never shared with me, in all these few months, anything the Lord has shared with you, or your congregation, through you, or anyone elses 'speaking in tongues'. That strikes me as truly
odd. Why would you not share such a glorious and convincing thing as that with another brother you meet? Here's why. It's like I've said before. Your church is your own secretive little playground where you all oogle at mutterings which no one has the sense to know from whence they came. Nor do you earnestly conside scripture to find out what you're doing. That is the obvious missing ingredient in this discussion. The telling of your own experiences. How could you talk about anything else? The answer is you don't know for sure what you're doing but only that you're doing it. You don't understand. "No one understands". One would think anyway.

What is also puzzelingly absent is 'what' He's 'audibly' spoken to you personally. This whole thing reminds me of the likely reason Paul included telling these 'gift desirers', to do away with childish things. Those(childish things) are all that you have mentioned here. Nothing that fits the description of sound biblical knowledge or reasonings. You have no reasonings at all. Your counsel from having experienced these voices, or these 'gifts', and witnessing many more who say they have the 'gifts' in your church, which ordinarily would appear in a discussion like this, is nil. The only answer would be that you don't understand. Because the Bible says "No one understands".

Let's not make the mistake that the Bible leaves us not understanding something important and potentially demeaning to the word of God.

And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

The entire Bible is the Lord's word, how can you say, "how do you hear Him"? Where have you been?

De 30:14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

De 32:47 "For it is not an idle word for you; indeed it is your life.

Ps 119:42 So I will have an answer for him who reproaches me, For I trust in Your word.

Ps 119:148 My eyes anticipate the night watches, That I may meditate on Your word.

Pr 30:5 Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.

The word of God will be 'tested', and when tested, will 'prove' itself.

Mt 13:23 "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it;

You prepare yourself to understand scripture by spreading it out in front of you and cultivating a basic understanding of it.

Whenever God put His word in someones mouth in the Old Testament, do you notice how God would always confirm it when asked. He never leaves us not knowing if what is coming from others is Him or not. He never even makes it necessary for us to ask. He no longer puts us in the position of having to inquire of other men whether or not their message is from Him.

You've put listening to voices above God's faithful witnesses and messengers He's purposefully spoken to you through.

And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

There are many who hear voices. Wasn't it a fellow named Dan Hill who said God spoke to him and told him to kill the abortion doctor? Do you believe that? Asked him to murder and break His own law? God has never done anything like that in His Word, has told us He never would, and therefore, we can truly know He won't, and instead, we now know that there are many voices people hear who appear to be God that aren't.

There is a common mental illness which functions exactly like that. Don't all skizophrenics hear voices? Many of them are convinced that voices they hear are from God. That's how we can know God will not speak in such a way.

Did you see the movie "A Beautiful Mind", about the famous professor that got his voices under control by talking back to them? Interesting? Are you aware that there are thousands of people on record throughout history that have done something ungodly, killed their children or broken the law, because they heard God tell them to do so. I am fully confident that they heard a voice they thought was from God, but it was not. Again, that is how we can be sure God does not communicate in that way.

We are not told in scripture to look for, or expect, to hear God's voice. His written word is all-important. It's His entire revelation to us and we must know the whole thing. Not rely on His audible voice to us. God spoke to Moses to record His words to all generations to come. The nation of Israel lost it. God kept steering them backwards referring to what had been spoken to their forefathers. Read in 2 Kings 22, how Hilkiah the high priest found the lost Book of the Law and showed it to Josiah. Josiah was shaken badly, realizing that God had spoken to him and all Israel for centuries prior, things which they were responsible to know now. And they were supposed to be telling their children to teach their future generations. He's shown us intricately, in the Old Testament, how He works and what to listen to, and where to find answers. He has spoken and expects us to go back and learn what He has already said. Josiah realized it was too late to even repent, and that nothing could now change God's judgement from being carried out on the nation of Israel and their being dispersed from their own land. Because God considered He had spoken to them sufficiently through His written word.

God has indeed spoken to us in somewhat of an audible fashion through His Son, and the testimony of many witnesses. The Bible says, audibly or not, that He has spoken to us through His Son, through the Law and the Prophets, and through angels. So the Bible's answer, as to how we hear Him, is through IT.

I'm sure that will not help you. Many people hear voices and you obviously are one of those.

The Word of Truth is the only voice of God that we are quaranteed we can rely on. Not the voices like Dan Hill, Joseph Smith, Oral Roberts or others tell you they hear. We've got 'built-in' scriptural 'protection' from them. That's hard to teach nowdays. We've got all these false prophets claiming to hear the voice of God. So what do we do then? I haven't heard a true one yet, have you? That can't simply be explained by nature? We know God tells us we have everything we 'need' to hear from Him through scripture. We know that the world is teaming with men who'd like to add to it. But we reason from God that we just ignore them. Or even expose them, warning others. We listen only to Jesus, the Word(which is Jesus), to Jesus' chosen 12 apostles, and the Old Testament which Jesus and they affirmed as His Word to us. Everything in that way is confined to Jesus' authority. He's told us His is the only Truth. It's sufficient. We stick with what we know has come from Him. If He's ever told us that He will be speaking to anyone of us, or that we should listen to those who claim He does, then it would be different. And then, He would certainly tell us how we would know. But He does not tell us those things. Therefore, we can only trust His written word and consider it His very spoken word, as He describes it.

O.K., let's look at all of these other things I got wrong:

I must add, you do not even attempt to get specific enough for me to know where I said these things. But that shouldn't pose a problem.

To your comment on tongues;
Nothing you said is in the context of 1 Cor. 12, 13 + 14.
Remember the context is to encourage you to seek the gift of tongues and operate in them in an orderly fashion.


That would not be a good description of the context of chapter 14.

Paul is describing something. It's some people of Corinth. They are speaking to God, not to men. "No one understands". Paul says what's wrong is it is not the Lord speaking to men. It's tongues to God. That those tongues should be clear and in known languages. He quotes the Lord describing 'tongues.

He is wholly discouraging this. Nor does He encourage anyone to seek the 'gift of tongues'. He says, "to each one", is given a gift. He says to "desire earnestly(actually) spiritual gifts. Not tongues. He is also implying here that there are spiritual gifts not being done in earnest. He also encourages to seek the greater gifts than tongues. Which is at the bottom of the list, even below administrations and helps. He even disparages 'their' tongues by saying he'd rather speak 5 words of teaching than 10,000 words in a tongue. That is not at all encouraging.

Todd, nothing is said about false tongues and that people could speak in tongues before they are saved (believe).

Yes there is. I had said that it is shown how the 'tongues to God', of 14:2, are the opposite of the Lord's description of tongues, which the Lord says are 'tongues spoken to people in their own language', from Him, through men of other tongues. Spiritual tongues have to be one or the other in chapter 14. There are not two kinds of tongues. Paul speaks of trying to get them all to conform to the same model. The same tongues. That makes one of the kinds of 'tongues', which bear no similarity to each other, "false tongues".

There is your "false tongues".

You can praise the Lord for that.

By explaining that 'tongues' are from the 'Lord to men, through men of other languages', and are not from 'men to God', as they are being done by some in Corinth, he reveals the false tongues.

They don't come from the Spirit of God, therefore they are not tongues, but 'false tongues'. Simple. And Paul, by silencing them, forbids those tongues. They come from men's spirits and cannot be interpreted. Nor would anyone desire them to be. The false tongues are not just "misfiring" to God instead of men. Paul is not silencing God's errant misfiring tongues, he's silencing 'men speaking to themselves and to God' as though they are speaking from God.

In fact it says absolutely nothing about what they were doing before salvation.

In fact it does. "You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led".

He says it quite well.

And immediately thereafter, Paul describes 'tongues' as 'speaking, "by", the Spirit of God" , and not 'speaking, "to", the Spirit of God'. Or tongues done wrongly. Making them false tongues.

Of course, you still have it in your head that there are tongues that speak to God as a 'sign' that someone is saved. Proof of 'this' or 'that'. Proof of a believer. Proof of people's salvation. Proof of God's presence. The 'empty', 'chattering', proof of a 'gift'. Just as those people from the pagan religions did with their 'tongues'. It was not proof for them and is not proof of our God. The original 'gift of tongues', God enabling His disciples to speak to foriegners at the Feast of Pentecost is a miracle we can only hope to catch a glimpse of today. But God's done that already, having been very well testified to, and having served it's purpose immaculately.

The other thing we know about many of the people of Corinth, prior to their salvation is that they had come from many different parts of the world, as Corinth was a widely visited economic and cultural center. Therefore, we can know that most in the congregation had been exposed to a miriad of other false religions, both native and from foriegn lands, wherein 'tongues to God' were spoken. Therefore, we have the source of the false tongues right there, and can see how they would easily creep into the early Christian church. Whether we like it or not. In fact, we would be surprised if these false fleshly tongues had not crept into the early Christian church from other religions. They appeared very convincingly to be coming from God, yet, they were an exact carry over from the false tongues of these other false religions.

It does not speak about worldly religions, their gods and pagan practices.

Again, it "does" refer to many of these people's former practice. "You know when you were pagans, you were led astray by mute idols...",. And there are presently, many known instances of 'pagan' religious tongues before the time of Christ. The ancient philosophers referred to people who carried on that way in the name of their god. I will eventually post those references in a final post which I'll label, "Interpreting Tongues". Until then, feel free to look up "glossolalia" in the online dictionary Wikipedia.

It doesn't speak about any natural or carnal mind whatsoever.

Well maybe it does. If I were to say "your spirit acting by itself is carnal", then I would be wrong. Becuase I tried that already and then thought it through only to see it's not correct.

But Paul describes 'tongues to God'. That is coming from a man and not from God. Therefore carnal. If it's coming from a man's self then it's carnal. Flesh is flesh. Spirit is Spirit were told.

And here is some instruction to us from the Lord:

Ec 5:2 "Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few."

Ps 139:4 "Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all."


And therefore, you had better know what you are saying when you want God's attention.

With your 'unknowable' language neither you nor anyone else understands, you had better well know that you ought to know what you are saying when you propose to speak to Him. He knows your words and thoughts to Him already when you are silent.

It doesn't even say that there is a tongue which is not from God.

It does too.

"Therefore, I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says 'Jesus is accursed'; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord", except by the Holy Spirit.

Paul tells us elsewhere in his epistles that there were people teaching a false Jesus, yet claiming to be speaking by the Spirit of God. If they did 'tongues' as well, which I'm sure some did, then there's another 'tongue' which is not from God. Consider the Mormons. There is an example of a tongue not from God.

As to the second part of what Paul says. Does every one who says 'Jesus is Lord' do so by the Holy Spirit? No they don't. They cannot truly do 'it' without the Spirit, but they can surely decieve men into thinking they are doing it. It only takes scripture to tell if they are true or not. Do the Jehovah Witnesses, who claim Jesus is not God claim to do it in the Spirit? Yes, they claim Jesus as a sort of Lord without attributing diety to Him. Do the Mormons, as a result of Joseph Smith's warped fairy tale, say Jesus is Lord? Yes. But they don't say He is God either. They hide that fact deep into their teachings. That is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. But nevertheless, they still do it, so in that way, yes, it can be done. They can misrepresent the Spirit outwardly. Can men say 'Jesus is Lord' or whatever they want to say and still teach the Law? Yes. We can point to false teachers in biblical times, and today, that have done that. But as we see from the two examples it does not mean it's from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit would not authorize Jesus to be described as the JW's and Mormons do. Because Jesus is part of the Godhead. But they still do it. In the same way that people of all religions can outwardly claim to speak in "tongues to God". But they are not really of God. Not only theirs but yours as well because they sound the same as theirs do. It's the same human thing. I'll show you where I found those studies, if you don't find them first, in Wikipedia under "glossalia". Your tongues are plainly a part of the elemental things of the world. Not from above.

So Paul does in fact say there is a tongues which is not from God. He points to people claiming to speak by the Spirit who are cursing Jesus. They are speaking from their own spirits.

Paul does not tell other Christians to give up tongues.

In the modern day, you do have men who, after looking at what Paul says here, can see that they are lieing to themselves, and speaking there own mutterings, and they do give up speaking these tongues. Paul forbids the wrong tongues by silencing them. Again, he is not silencing God but men. Tongues that you can't even share with another Christian brother because they are you and not the Lord. That's the 'tongues to God' Paul says to give up. People from many false religions have been able to do that sort of thing from the beginning of time. He encourages us to desire, in earnest, the greater gifts than tongues. In fact, he'd like some of those speaking tongues to move onto desiring other 'gifts'. You've brought this 'tongues', which history has observed in even nonreligious people, back into the church of Christ. You've been encouraged by men with 'no gift', who desire a gift from God that they won't get because He's got no purpose for it anymore. So they struggle to manufacture their desires out of this one single verse of the Bible 1 Cor. 14:2. And it's easy to misrepresent this passage to ignorant men who desire the gifts so produce these unexplained and unexplainable mutterings. It fits men's flesh perfectly. It gives them spiritual power and involement. As it has from the beginning of time. They edify themselves and no one else, but fools. Because it stands to reason that a person believing they are being edified by a strange gift, by hearing something that there is nothing edifying to be found in, except for the one speaking, would be taken for a fool. That's plain. Your making a fool of these people in church by performing something from 'you to God' for them, for which there is no interpretation, telling them there is 'one', but that only God knows, and He's not telling anyone, and having them seem to themselves to be edified when, when according to Paul, they can't be. That means they are feeling falsely edified. They are foolish. Betrayed. And you are bearing false witness to them when you should know better. Do you see how scripture allows me to know these things? You may know Christ, but you've put the natural voices which you hear in your head above the superior lessons from scripture.

Todd; the Bible (1 Cor. 12, 13+14) does NOT say that!
You have made that up all by yourself.


It would be nice to know exactly what you are talking about.
I don't know if I actually made anything up but at least you posed some good questions that I could respond to. You didn't really address much of what I said, but rather just reframed it in sort of a dunce way. But it's something, and luckily, anyone would be able to see here that scripture is available to us to reveal what sorts of languages are what.

Paul G., the apostle Paul says that these, 'tongues to God', are not able to be interpreted. They, being your "tongues to God", would not, in any situation, be able to be interpreted, unless you figure out yourself what you are meaning to say by them. He tells you to pray about it, and, while you are praying about it, he says not to 'pray in tongues' about it. It's dangerous because it causes men to stumble. He defines praying in tongues as coming from men's spirits and not the 'tongues from God to men'. They are uninterpretable. We could even say Paul is saying 'worthless', 'tongues to God' from 'men's own spirit'. Completely unedifying, except to the one subconsciously doing them. No one understands. They are mysteries to God which have no interpretation. God recognizes what they are and that they are not from Him. They are subconscious murmurings from men that He regards nearly anyone can do given the childish desire to do so. They are to Him from men's spirits. Completely unimpressive. From men. Mysteries to God not miracles from God. Probably gibberish to Him as well. That's what he tells us in verses 14:13-20. He says as you pray and bless and sing and give thanks in your spirit, do so with your mind also. That's how we can be sure they are not God's tongues. They are not from God's mind. He's not discouraging praying and blessing and giving thanks in front of others, just not in foriegn tongues that have no interpreter. He says to do it in a language that is understood or is interpreted by someone present, or not at all. Not in some "unknowable" tongue. That way we can tell if it you blessing or God blessing. But God speaks to men, not to Himself in 'your' tongues. In a known foreign language, for known foreigners of that tongue, with a message to be recieved by them that they would not be able to recieve if God had not stepped in, because none of the disciples there knew how to speak their language. Paul makes the disinction very well between what is permissible and what is not. He's speaking about the Lord's 'tongues'. And there is only one knowable way to perform them.

1 Cor. 14:2 does say that those mysteries are spoken to God and not to men, devils or demons.

Right. So they are 'of men',to God. Sorry, the Lord says He will speak to people with the 'tongues' of other men.

Your tongues may be done for self-glorification, fun, or out of ignorance or lack of self-control. Anything that contradicts scripture reveals itself by it's own fruit.

Tongues are only for the edification of the Church, if they are interpreted. For that reason 1 Cor. 14 was written.
If the tongue speaker speaks only to God, then the Church is not edified but only the tongue speaker 1 Cor. 14:4.


No, tongues are "always" meant for the edification of the church, whether they are interpreted or not. Tongues are tongues. One purpose. If they don't edify they are from a man to himself and God. God does not send unedifying tongues. Yes, if the tongues speaker is speaking to God then fine. Let Him speak to God. Would you like to hear me speak to God in tongues? Who would? Who wants to hear you speak to God in your own tongues? Tongues with no reason to be interpreted because they are in your own unknowble language to God with no message but from you. A few fuzzy minded people who simply believe what you've taught them will fall for it until they think it all the way through.

Todd; I ought to know because I have received the gift of tongues from the Lord.

Fine, that must explain how I know you 'don't' speak in tongues. I must have the gift of wisdom or of knowledge. Hopefully both. Obviously I have the ability to handle scripture respectfully and let it speak for Itself without contradiction. I'm not sure it takes any spiritual gift to tell that your tongues are coming from you and have no value to anyone but obviously yourself.

Every believer in Jesus Christ is born again, he is a brand new man, old things have passed away and all things are new. They do not walk in their former way of life because the Spirit of the living God is in them and neither would they practice any thing which is not from the Lord.

Oh I'll bet there are some practicing Catholics that would prove you wrong. There are people from the Catholic church who love Christ with all their hearts and have still been taught to blaspheme by praying to Mary or the saints for blessings or favor or good fortune which is only God's to give through Christ. Woe to their teachers.

Couldn't we go on for quite awhile about sincere practicing Christians with many shortcomings in their earthly walk with Christ.

No, Christ's Spirit does not make us perfect. It leads us on towards perfection.

You are in control of your own free will. Being 'reborn' does not guarantee that your every practice is ordained by the Lord. Paul even reprimanded Peter in Galatians for not 'practicing' what he had been taught by the Lord. Peter was asking the newly believing Gentiles to live like the Jews, under the ministry of condemnation and death(the Mosiac Law). Being 'reborn' guarantees nothing but an opportunity to draw near to the Lord, and harness your newly created Spirit now joined to God's unto fruitfullness for both you and He. You'd better let the reasoning and teaching of the scripture prevail over your confused fleshly unexplainable muttering to God. He wants you to talk to Him clearly with a fruitful mind.

Whenever tongues do not have an interpretation, it is not God showing up speaking in a foriegn language to Himself or others, forgetting to provide an interpreter. How does such a scenario make sense? A slightly less than all-knowing God.

I understand how believing otherwise would spoil your fun.

Your 'tongues' are men speaking to God from their own aroused spirits, disguised by their own flesh and decieved by their own reckless hearts. Those 'tongues' are not God forgetting to send an interpreter. Or accidentally speaking to Himself. May the Lord begin to clear up your misunderstanding of these teachings you follow that have isolated this one single verse, 1 Cor. 14:2, and given it a false life of it's own in contradiction to the Lord's own words that states that tongues are to people, from Him, through others in languqages they are strangers to, for teaching and edification of those language speaking foriegners. His prescribed purpose is well stated. They could not be mistaken for anything else, nor would they, nor would they ever be silenced. Unfortunately, I would like to see a sign occassionally too. But I've been instructed better. And yours are laughable. The 'signs' you deal in are from you. Tongues were meant for the feast of pentecost and perhaps a short while after, and presently appear out in the mission field occasionally, possibly, when missionaries venture into foriegn lands and God ordains that they are needed. The Bible assures us why the 'sign' gifts were around during the first century but does not assure us that those reasons still exist. They are not still around for self-edification and confusion and strife. Men's tongues to God are, always have been, and always will be around. Even though they were forbidden by Paul. Test the voices Paul G. Brotherly love, Todd.

This is an ridiculously long comment. I did repeat myself a few times. Topics like these deserve time and space and care. I believe it's finally well worth the read. Although I wish I had some time to tighten it up a little.

Soon, given the time, I will condense it into a nice easy to understand summary.

I see the necessity of a few more I.Q. points in my make-up to really smoothen things out. But it is getting done all the same - just more clumbsily than one would hope. Praise the Lord's simplicity and Him being able to use the weak to show His strength.

You did ask me some questions, and ask for my response, so there it is to the best of my ability.